Impact of repeating weapons.

wausaubob

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
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Something happened to the Confederate Army of Tennessee.
Between the start of Rosecrans' Tullahoma campaign and the conclusion of the shooting match at Chickamauga, something happened to that army. It was probably the very heavy casualty rates they experienced as the Cumberland Army became more familiar with hard hitting Springfield rifles and it deployed more Colt, Spencer and Henry repeating rifles.
By the time the Confederates got to Chattanooga, they did not seem to have much desire to fight.
Dave Powell at page 180 of his book The Impulse of Victory lists Confederate casualties at 361 KIA, 2,160 WIA and 4,446 missing. But he also asserts that General Thomas" provost reported that for the entire 6 week period there were 573 deserters, and 5,569 prisoners.
Those are extraordinary numbers. They are evidence that the rifles and the repeating rifles were having an effect on morale. The impact of the repeating weapons is impossible to separate from the impact of US occupation of Tennessee and US control of the Mississippi River. The inability of the Confederate commissary and quartermaster departments to deliver adequate sustenance to the soldiers also has to be considered. There was not a controlled experiment.
I will leave to others to compare the conduct of Bragg's unlucky army to that of Lee's Virginia army after the US had better equipped its cavalry forces.
 
I think Bragg had a lot to do with it and a successful US Army didn't help matters.

The Tullahoma campaign was a kick in the teeth to the AoT, Chickamauga was as well because even in victory the casualties were very heavy. Then the mismanagement of the Supplies available to the Army during the siege with the CS disaster on Lookout Mtn & Missionary Ridge…

It took Johnson to rebuild the AoT and put a semblance of morale back into it. I'm not sure anyone other than maybe Lee could have done it.

At least they were rid of Bragg.
 
I have done some research on this as I recently acquired a ID Wilder's Brigade Spencer rifle that was found on the Chickamauga battlefield back in the early 1900's. Wilder's men were able to decimate the CS troops in front of them from Tullahoma to Chickamauga. It had to be very hard for CS to even think about charging yankees with a Spencer.
 
I have done some research on this as I recently acquired a ID Wilder's Brigade Spencer rifle that was found on the Chickamauga battlefield back in the early 1900's. Wilder's men were able to decimate the CS troops in front of them from Tullahoma to Chickamauga. It had to be very hard for CS to even think about charging yankees with a Spencer.
You are so right, UVC, and so fortunate to have that Spencer!
 
I have done some research on this as I recently acquired a ID Wilder's Brigade Spencer rifle that was found on the Chickamauga battlefield back in the early 1900's. Wilder's men were able to decimate the CS troops in front of them from Tullahoma to Chickamauga. It had to be very hard for CS to even think about charging yankees with a Spencer.
Think of the noise.
 
Wilder's men were able to decimate the CS troops in front of them from Tullahoma to Chickamauga. It had to be very hard for CS to even think about charging yankees with a Spencer.

The Confederates won at Chicamauga. Why?

Did the Spencer rifles all jam up?
 
The Confederates won at Chicamauga. Why?

Did the Spencer rifles all jam up?
Bragg had to be convinced he won. It might be interesting if you read up on the battle. The Spencer rifles and Colt revolving rifles were a part of how Thomas became the Rock of Chickamauga. Where waves of CS troops broke against the Rock of the men fighting under Thomas.
 
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What did the Confederates win? Did they occupy the town of Chattanooga? Did they occupy the cite of the railroad crossing at Bridgeport? Did the US army dissolve and go fleeing back to Murfreesboro? And was the price of the victory? Once the price of victory was paid did the Confederate Army of Tennessee have the ability on its own to defeat the Cumberlanders?
 
What did the Confederates win? Did they occupy the town of Chattanooga? Did they occupy the cite of the railroad crossing at Bridgeport? Did the US army dissolve and go fleeing back to Murfreesboro? And was the price of the victory? Once the price of victory was paid did the Confederate Army of Tennessee have the ability on its own to defeat the Cumberlanders?
Bragg won the battle and lost the campaign.
 
How many repeaters did the infantry of Army of the Cumberland have at Chickamauga? I know about Wilder's brigade and one or two regiments with Colts. The Colts must have been significantly less effective than Spencers; the Colts not having self contained metal cartridges I assume they must have been slow to reload once the blizzard of 5 quick shots was over.
 
How many repeaters did the infantry of Army of the Cumberland have at Chickamauga? I know about Wilder's brigade and one or two regiments with Colts. The Colts must have been significantly less effective than Spencers; the Colts not having self contained metal cartridges I assume they must have been slow to reload once the blizzard of 5 quick shots was over.
I believe only Wilder's brigade had Spencer Rifles. Spencer carbine deliveries to the Ordnance Department didn't begin until October 1863 so were not yet available. Per Eric Wittenberg in Holding the Line on the River of Death, Minty's cavalry had Burnisde, Smith and Sharps breechloading carbines, except for the 4th Michigan which had Colt Revolving Rifles. Of course the 21st Ohio Infantry famously also had Colt Revolving Rifles on Horsehoe Ridge.
 
Something happened to the Confederate Army of Tennessee.
Between the start of Rosecrans' Tullahoma campaign and the conclusion of the shooting match at Chickamauga, something happened to that army. It was probably the very heavy casualty rates they experienced as the Cumberland Army became more familiar with hard hitting Springfield rifles and it deployed more Colt, Spencer and Henry repeating rifles.
By the time the Confederates got to Chattanooga, they did not seem to have much desire to fight.
Dave Powell at page 180 of his book The Impulse of Victory lists Confederate casualties at 361 KIA, 2,160 WIA and 4,446 missing. But he also asserts that General Thomas" provost reported that for the entire 6 week period there were 573 deserters, and 5,569 prisoners.
Those are extraordinary numbers. They are evidence that the rifles and the repeating rifles were having an effect on morale. The impact of the repeating weapons is impossible to separate from the impact of US occupation of Tennessee and US control of the Mississippi River. The inability of the Confederate commissary and quartermaster departments to deliver adequate sustenance to the soldiers also has to be considered. There was not a controlled experiment.
I will leave to others to compare the conduct of Bragg's unlucky army to that of Lee's Virginia army after the US had better equipped its cavalry forces.
A couple of points about the timeline below are significant.

First, it took a year for the Spencer Company to begin deliveries after it received its first Army order in December 1861. However, if the Army had ordered the guns as early as the did Navy (June 1861) ceteris paribus the year's delay would have put the first deliveries in June 1862, not December.

Second, the Spencer Company faced possible bankruptcy after Edwin Stanton replaced Simon Cameron as War Secretary. Since Cameron had a venal reputation, Stanton initiated a systematic review of Cameron's contracts. The Spencer Company was among the suppliers covered by the review that spanned about three months in Spring 1862. The owners, therefore, may have slowed down the rate at which they scaled their factory until they knew they would retain the Army contract.

*​

The Spencer Repeating Rifle was patented in March 1860.

The Civil War began in April 1861.

With the help of Richard Lawrence of the Sharps company, Christopher Spencer made a demonstration model of his rifle in May 1861.

In June 1861 John Dahlgren tested the Spencer for the Navy. As a result, the Navy ordered 700 rifles.

In August 1861 Alexander Dyer of the Army Ordnance Corps tested and reported favorably upon the Spencer.

In October 1861 a Spencer lobbyist proposed that General James Ripley's Army Ordnance Bureau order 5,000.

In November 1861 a McClellan panel tested and reported favorably upon the Spencer.

On December 11, 1861 James Ripley explained his objections to both the Henry and the Spencer to War Secretary Simon Cameron. Among them was that the rapid firing rate might cause soldiers to waste ammunition. A week later, Warren Fisher—a Spencer business associate—proposed directly to Secretary Cameron that the War Department order 10,000 rifles. After Cameron received Fisher's proposal, Assistant War Secretary Tom Scott directed James Ripley to order them, which Ripley did the day after Christmas.

On January 20, 1862 Edwin Stanton replaced Simon Cameron as War Secretary. On January 23, 1862 the Spencer Repeating Arms company was incorporated with Warren Fisher as Treasurer. Christopher Spencer was not a shareholder but would receive a royalty on each gun sold. Due to Cameron's venal reputation, Stanton insisted upon a review of many Cameron contracts including the one with Fisher for Spencer. That same month the Spencer Company began equipping a production factory that would eventually surpass all other private companies in size except for Hartford's Colt factory.

In March 1862 the Special Commission on Ordnance and Ordnance Stores started reviewing Secretary Cameron's contracts.

On April 23, 1862 the Spencer Company sent a production model to James Ripley for approval. Ripley falsely claimed the hardware components were made from a malleable metal instead of wrought iron, a point he found to be "generally objectionable."

On June 9, 1862 Ripley conceded that the model submitted on April 23rd did indeed use wrought iron hardware and was therefore acceptable. That same month the Commission gave the green light to the Spencer contract but reduced the total units from 10,000 to 7,500. It did, however, specify that deliveries should begin that very month. When Fisher asked for more time, Ripley initially replied that the Commission's decision was "final," but he later caved to political pressure.

Production deliveries began in December 1862. They were intended for a regiment commanded by a political Michigan general, who was replaced by Custer on the eve of Gettysburg.

During June and July of 1863 Spencer rifles were used to good effect at the battles of Hoovers Gap and the Gettysburg cavalry fight.

After 24,000 loaded muzzleloaders were scavenged from the Gettysburg Battlefield and three-fourths were fouled with multiple loads rendering them useless in combat, Ripley ordered 11,000 Spencer carbines on July 17, 1863. Although Spencers could become jammed, they were less likely to be as difficultly and dangerously jammed as a muzzleloader with multiple loads. One third of the muzzleloaders with multiple loads had three or more.

In August 1863 Lincoln satisfactorily tested the Spencer on the White House Lawn in the presence of the inventor.

In September 1863 Ripley is replaced.

*​

Although it was the last of the major carbine models to be ordered (July 1863) it was more widely deployed than any carbine except the Sharps, which had been invented twelve years earlier and the first to be ordered.
 
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It was the western Confederate army that faced the bulk of the early experiments. At first it was just an occasional problem for the Confederate Army. But by Chickamauga the repeating weapons made the cost of fighting the Cumberland Army too high.
 
Spencer's rifle and carbine could have easily failed. At just about any point the US army could have rejected the delivery.
 
Spencer's rifle and carbine could have easily failed. At just about any point the US army could have rejected the delivery.
The Colt revolving rifle and shotgun had quite a few sales prior to the war and they had a relatively good reputation even after. Part of the reason they get a bad rap is the compexity of the arm, if not put together correctly after cleaning there will be problems. And while the legend of the multiple discharge of cylinders is a period one it is one where I have never tracked down the name of a single man wounded by such a discharge. A lot of the bad hype continues today due to re-enactors, a sort know for benign neglect of arms, speaking of a multiple discharge... firing blanks. Firing live rounds this type of event is highly unlikely unless there is a crack in the cylinder which would lead to a catastrophic problem regardless. But firing live rounds the bullet acts as a seal from leaked fire from the front and a percussion cap upon the nipple seals it from the other side eliminating the issue altogether.

The Spencer is robust and reliable to an entirely different level, a minimal of moving parts, difficult to get out of order and an effective metallic cartridge and ejector... what's not to like? Not that hard hitting? True. Not that accurate... compared to what. A man sized target within 150-200 yards was in real trouble against a man who knew how to shoot. The majority of engagements during the ACW were at that range or less and in the western theatre where it excelled longer ranged engagements were even less common.

In both cases the Spencer and Colt Revolving rifle gave good service. The problem was post was when the Spencer had done too good a job with his carbine and rifle in that they flooded the market. Then large numbers going to France for the Franco Prussian War... which France lost. While the reports from the French were very positive they were the losers with all the negative hype that followed such. The Colt Revolving Rifle was not so robust and as a relatively complicated arms requiring more maintenance it did not have the civilian sales that might have carried past the negative hype and seen problems resolved with follow on models.
 
The Spencer seems to have been easier to maintain than had been expected. When the ammunition was also durable on bad roads and lots of rain, that is probably when the break through occurred. I wonder what the regiments in Schofield's command were using when they conducted their naked river crossings?
 
Bragg had to be convinced he won. It might be interesting if you read up on the battle. The Spencer rifles and Colt revolving rifles were a part of how Thomas became the Rock of Chickamauga. Where waves of CS troops broke against the Rock of the men fighting under Thomas.

Abraham Lincoln was convinced. He removed General Rosecrans from command. You might want to read up on that.
Thomas' "rock" was a stunt that allowed the rest of the U.S. Army a path toward retreat. They were being overrun by Confederates and I have walked the ground. It's unbelievable the Yankees couldn't defend it.

Repeating rifles should have and could have saved them, but not so. That is the reality and the subject of this thread.
 
Abraham Lincoln was convinced. He removed General Rosecrans from command. You might want to read up on that.
Thomas' "rock" was a stunt that allowed the rest of the U.S. Army a path toward retreat. They were being overrun by Confederates and I have walked the ground. It's unbelievable the Yankees couldn't defend it.

Repeating rifles should have and could have saved them, but not so. That is the reality and the subject of this thread.
If the general in charge of the winning side has to be convinced he won…

The Rock of Chickamauga was no "stunt," at least the men facing it certainly didn't think so. But then those who have actually studied the fight know that. Even the most obtuse understands a rear guard or delaying action that worked so well there was no pursuit. Armchair commandos have always been another matter though.

The "stunt" Thomas successfully stopped any pursuit of the Army of the Cumberland and kept the CS from turning a win into a game changing victory. But again anyone who has studied the battle is quite aware of that.

Thomas would gain command of the Army of the Cumberland partly because of his performance at Chickamauga and later at Missionary Ridge. Any who have walked that battlefield understands why the CS soldier had actual respect for the US soldier instead of blind hatred.

As to walking it, it's NPS land so nothing kept me from walking the field and a variety of superb books have allowed me to study the battle. I've also walked Lookout Mountain and Missionary Ridge and seeing the terrain those US boys charged up and understanding how they took it there's no wonder they took Atlanta, Savannah and crushed the Confederacy.

The reality of repeating rifles and this thread…,
I'll ask the same question of you I asked of another dodger. How many rounds have you sent down range from a Spencer, or any period rifle or rifle musket for that matter? Do you have any actual understanding that it is more than the wave of some magic wand to get a weapon into mass production?

ThevSpencer and Colt revolving rifle both contributed to Thomas keeping Chickamauga from turning into a disaster that might have changed the fortunes of the CS in the west or losing the gains made in the Tullahoma campaign. But they were far from the only thing, most of that was the US soldier saying no, not while I have ammunition. The 2nd MN marched off the field that day with empty cartridge boxes and bayonets fixed. You don't hold against Longstreet with empty cartridge boxes. But then again you know that, or should.
 
I invite the weapons experts to comment. But to me the Sharp's carbine looks a little more difficult to use while mounted, and might not have been as easy to use in the rain.
The Spencer carbine looked like it needed a little practice in establishing the rhythm. Since the proprietary ammunition turned out to be durable, that may be one reason Spencer's design dominated.
The Henry is obviously a superior weapon. But New Haven Arms had production problems early and the Henry may have been difficult to maintain. At a farm, a fort, or on a ship, I can see the advantage. The weapon can be maintained inside and a visit to a gunsmith is possible.
There were not many Henry rifles in the war, but the ones that were deployed had a definite impact.
 

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