ID Help Please: Confederate 2nd Pattern Artillery Officer's Kepi

[GettysburgHistorian]

Hey everyone! First, photos: https://imgur.com/a/eUoHixs

I picked this up yesterday from a shop that occasionally has some amazing finds. Took me by surprise to see this there, and despite the price tag I couldn't let it go. Anyway, I believe (am hoping) this is a genuine Confederate 2nd Pattern Artillery Officer's Kepi. It's challenging to find authentic photos to compare to, but here's a replica made to the original specs (with info on that style): http://www.legendaryarms.com/model-1862-confederate-officers-kepi/.

Here's what I can tell you:
- It was purchased last week at the Northern Virginia CW Show (http://nvrha.com/show.htm) by a local dealer in my area
- It was brought to the show by a well known-collector who lived and collected in Fredericksburg, VA
- Definitely 2nd pattern (1st pattern has a red base and grey up top - 2nd pattern has a dark base and red up top)
- It is a size Small, according to most CW kepi dimensions I could locate (6 5/8" diameter - 21" circumference X just over 8" in length)... the last photo showing the diameter is at an angle to avoid glare, so it looks <6 5/8" but that number is correct
- No label(s) inside/no inscription anywhere
- Buttons and chinstrap both missing
- I can't tell if it's one braid (lieutenant) or two (captain)... at first glance it looks like a single braid but in photo 6 I swear I see a tie around two separate braids... maybe I'm seeing things?

I only really have one concern about it - and that's the base below the red part. Everywhere I've researched says it's dark blue, and mine appears to be black. I'm guessing that could easily have faded over time (I also found some blue cloth pieces interwoven in it), or it could've been replaced. Everything else seems genuine to the era and correct.

Any thoughts? I feel pretty good about it but I defer to this sub's expertise. THANK YOU!

 

[UCVRelics]

Its very hard to authenticate items from photos especially cloth. The CS copied this kepi from the French. In my 45 plus year of collecting I have seen the French kepi passed off as CS Artillery kepi many times. The fact that the buttons, strap and inner liner are missing is suspect. I'm not saying it is or aint just what I see and know.

 

[GettysburgHistorian]

Its very hard to authenticate items from photos especially cloth. The CS copied this kepi from the French. In my 45 plus year of collecting I have seen the French kepi passed off as CS Artillery kepi many times. The fact that the buttons, strap and inner liner are missing is suspect. I'm not saying it is or aint just what I see and know.

I hear ya. The holes are there where the buttons once were, so it at least had them at some point. I totally get what you mean though - especially with Confederate items. There's not really a definitive guide. I assume the buttons and chinstrap were just lost to time somewhere.

 

[Larryh86GT]

I have no expertise on it's authenticity but the condition looks really good. It will display nicely.

 

[GettysburgHistorian]

I have no expertise on it's authenticity but the condition looks really good. It will display nicely.

Thanks! It's definitely very old but in decent shape. Couple small moth holes here and there but nothing worrysome.

 

[Package4]

Do you have a written guarantee as to the authenticity? I would not be worried about the black band, but there are a couple of things about it that I would not be comfortable with, for example and only from pictures, the brim looks to be from another cap. Look closely and see if there are spare holes in the area where the sweatband and brim attach. Just first blush, it looks like a French piece, but would need to actually see it in person. First picture is of original SC captains artillery kepi, with Greg Starbuck recreation and second is one of only four known Richmond Depot artillery kepis. I don't know who told you about 1st and 2nd patterns, but there really is no such thing.
Civil war kepis usually have a very different type of brim attachment, where there is part of the band material extended as
seen in the 3rd Va kepi. Rare to see a brim attached directly to the sweatband, but not unheard of.

 

[Lanyard Puller]

If you paid a "Confederate Kepi price" for it, I hope you got a written letter of authenticity, or the piece had a letter from Les Jenson or another appraiser. My amigo, The Package4 was a bit less blunt in his usual excellent reply.

 

[GettysburgHistorian]

If you paid a "Confederate Kepi price" for it, I hope you got a written letter of authenticity, or the piece had a letter from Les Jenson or another appraiser. My amigo, The Package4 was a bit less blunt in his usual excellent reply.

It wasn't too bad - $1100. Could've been a lot more for sure. I just didn't want to pass up a chance that it could be genuine. I figured since it was missing the chinstrap and buttons it made sense that it wasn't $2k/$3k or more. No letter of authenticity - the dealer JUST bought it last week at that show and had only the day before added to his section.

It was listed for $1475 and I was able to get it for $1100.

I'll grab more photos!

 

[Package4]

I would absolutely go back to the dealer and ask whether he would honor an examination from Les Jensen, it will cost $250, but you will absolutely know what you have. Confederate headgear is a very tricky collecting area and fakes abound due to the high prices garnered.

 

[Package4]

It wasn't too bad - $1100. Could've been a lot more for sure. I just didn't want to pass up a chance that it could be genuine. I figured since it was missing the chinstrap and buttons it made sense that it wasn't $2k/$3k or more. No letter of authenticity - the dealer JUST bought it last week at that show and had only the day before added to his section.

It was listed for $1475 and I was able to get it for $1100.

I'll grab more photos if I can.

Big red flag there! A reputable Fredericksburg Collector would not let a Confederate kepi go for under $8k, they were $15k before the bubble burst. Definitely get a guarantee on that.

 

[GettysburgHistorian]

Big red flag there! A reputable Fredericksburg Collector would not let a Confederate kepi go for under $8k, they were $15k before the bubble burst. Definitely get a guarantee on that.

Gotcha. If it turned out to not be a genuine confederate kepi - what do you think it could be? Just a regular French kepi? Zouave maybe? I haven't given up yet, but just considering options.

 

[Lanyard Puller]

Dave,
Read between the lines in the last few posts.
There are collectors on this forum who have been dogging Confederate stuff for well over 50 years and know better than ever burning any bridges with dealers or face a possible law suit over a 3rd party appraisal.
Don't talk yourself into buying something because it's too good to be true, overlooking the visible faults. I assure you the "too good to be true items", are almost always Not.

 

[WJC]

I have seen the French kepi passed off as CS Artillery kepi many times. The fact that the buttons, strap and inner liner are missing is suspect.

My thoughts when reviewing the photos also.

 

[GettysburgHistorian]

Dave,
Read between the lines in the last few posts.
There are collectors on this forum who have been dogging Confederate stuff for well over 50 years and know better than ever burning any bridges with dealers or face a possible law suit over a 3rd party appraisal.
Don't talk yourself into buying something because it's too good to be true, overlooking the visible faults. I assure you the "too good to be true items", are almost always Not.

Hey - I'm sure it's likely not intentional, but the way that was worded came across as talking down to me. I'm not saying it's 100% genuine - I'm asking questions from people that know more than I do. I haven't said anyone who's posted is wrong - I'm thanking folks and getting as much info as I can.

If it's not a genuine CSA kepi it's not that big of a deal - it's still very old and was worn by some military outfit. I'll figure it out eventually. But I'm not a huge fan of the way your comment came across. I'm just asking for help - there's no need to try and shut me down here. I post here for the comraderie and expertise. Check my post history - I'm always polite and thank everyone. If I had all the answers I wouldn't be posting here. Maybe this was too risky a call, maybe not. Time will tell but I'm thankful for any assistance in solving the mystery.

 

[Package4]

Gotcha. If it turned out to not be a genuine confederate kepi - what do you think it could be? Just a regular French kepi? Zouave maybe? I haven't given up yet, but just considering options.

I think it is worth getting another opinion such as Les Jensen or even Raphael at Shiloh, I think someone in the past decided to dress up a French kepi for whatever reason. I do not believe that brim is original to the piece, but you are in the best position to tell, as I said before get a magnifying glass and take a good look to see if all of the threaded holes match and that there are no spare holes indicating a piece that was pieced together. There should be zero spare holes unless the thread is broken in that area. Looks to be a late 19th century French piece, but one never knows.

 

[GettysburgHistorian]

I think it is worth getting another opinion such as Les Jensen or even Raphael at Shiloh, I think someone in the past decided to dress up a French kepi for whatever reason. I do not believe that brim is original to the piece, but you are in the best position to tell, as I said before get a magnifying glass and take a good look to see if all of the threaded holes match and that there are no spare holes indicating a piece that was pieced together. There should be zero spare holes unless the thread is broken in that area. Looks to be a late 19th century French piece, but one never knows.

Cool, will do! I'll get a closer look tonight when I get home. Thanks again!

 

[Package4]

Hey - I'm sure it's likely not intentional, but the way that was worded came across as talking down to me. I'm not saying it's 100% genuine - I'm asking questions from people that know more than I do. I haven't said anyone who's posted is wrong - I'm thanking folks and getting as much info as I can.

If it's not a genuine CSA kepi it's not that big of a deal - it's still very old and was worn by some military outfit. I'll figure it out eventually. But I'm not a huge fan of the way your comment came across. I'm just asking for help - there's no need to try and shut me down here. I post here for the comraderie and expertise. Check my post history - I'm always polite and thank everyone. If I had all the answers I wouldn't be posting here. Maybe this was too risky a call, maybe not. Time will tell but I'm thankful for any assistance in solving the mystery.

I can assure you it was unintentional, Lanyard Puller is a very helpful individual as well as the Wizard of Confederate Arms and he knows a bit about Confederate cloth, the hard way, but that is a story for another day, at least he got his money back.

The best of us can be fooled with cloth........

Since you are in Charleston, you might want to take it by Dirty Billy's Hats and see if Bill Wickham is in. Billy is fairly knowledgeable, but tell him that there are quite a few doubts about the hat first. Or go in and offer to sell it to him, that might be the best way to get his honest opinion. Otherwise he might want to be nice to a prospective customer.

Billy offered me one of his English Army cloth caps in February for $15K, if that tells you what some still feel they are worth.

You could also take it by the Confederate Museum there in Charleston.

The cap is definitely old, but the construction looks later than the ACW IMHO.

Many dealers do not want to get caught in a he said she said and a potential lawsuit.

Best of luck!

 

[GettysburgHistorian]

I can assure you it was unintentional, Lanyard Puller is a very helpful individual as well as the Wizard of Confederate Arms and he knows a bit about Confederate cloth, the hard way, but that is a story for another day, at least he got his money back.

The best of us can be fooled with cloth........

Since you are in Charleston, you might want to take it by Dirty Billy's Hats and see if Bill Wickham is in. Billy is fairly knowledgeable, but tell him that there are quite a few doubts about the hat first. Or go in and offer to sell it to him, that might be the best way to get his honest opinion. Otherwise he might want to be nice to a prospective customer.

Billy offered me one of his English Army cloth caps in February for $15K, if that tells you what some still feel they are worth.

You could also take it by the Confederate Museum there in Charleston.

The cap is definitely old, but the construction looks later than the ACW IMHO.

Many dealers do not want to get caught in a he said she said and a potential lawsuit.

Best of luck!

Thanks very much - I appreciate it! I've purchased from Billy before - that's an excellent idea. And I've spoken about donations to that museum as well. I'll let you guys know what they say.

Honestly, I got a decent bit more than expected from my tax return so this wasn't a huge deal price wise. As long as it's genuinely old and is military in nature I'm fine with it. If it ends up being of Civil War origin in any way - that'll be icing on the cake.

 

[Larryh86GT]

davebleedsblue - I have a Union Forage cap coming that I bought because I just liked the looks of it. I have no
great expectations that it is authentic for the CW period but can understand the "just maybe it might be". The
fun of the hunt.

 

[GettysburgHistorian]

davebleedsblue - I have a Union Forage cap coming that I bought because I just liked the looks of it. I have no
great expectations that it is authentic for the CW period but can understand the "just maybe it might be". The
fun of the hunt.

Nice!! You know exactly how I felt seeing this! Good luck my friend!