ID help New York Surgeon

[lelliott19]

Anyone recognize this guy or any clues that might help to id him?

Any help??? @Frederick14Va @Mike Serpa @Patrick H @Cumpston1862 @AndyHall @AUG351 @7th Mississippi Infantry @TerryB @Allie

The image is from Syracuse NY area and I think he has the "muffin buttons" that @Frederick14Va taught me about in another thread? At least the top button appears to be the "muffin button?" I think he is a Surgeon or Assistant Surgeon as he has the medical service insignia plainly visible on his hat.

What about the chair? @Mike Serpa Do you recognize it from a particular photographer?

Thanks for any help.

 

[Frederick14Va]

The uniform in question appears to be the standard regulation frock coat for a junior grade officer.

The rank shoulder straps are of the larger and higher grade double or triple row private purchase type that were popular especially early war era. The rank is that of a Captain. Shoulder strap appears it might have a center device that could be the non-regulation "MS". Similar to this one...

The cap is also standard regulation. The insignia on front might be non-regulation "MS" but more likely actually "US", which was a more common habit and adhered closer to regulations. Unless you have a good crisp clear image of it, it can be quite difficult to tell an Old English "M" from a "U"... This original example is the "US"...

Void of any further evidence or clues to go by it could be quite difficult to place an ID on the individual... Quite a few Medical Officers came out of NY...

 

[Allie]

The uniform in question appears to be the standard regulation frock coat for a junior grade officer.

The rank shoulder straps are of the larger and higher grade double or triple row private purchase type that were popular especially early war era. The rank is that of a Captain. Shoulder strap appears it might have a center device that could be the non-regulation "MS". Similar to this one...
View attachment 66523

The cap is also standard regulation. The insignia on front might be non-regulation "MS" but more likely actually "US", which was a more common habit and adhered closer to regulations. Unless you have a good crisp clear image of it, it can be quite difficult to tell an Old English "M" from a "U"... This original example is the "US"...
View attachment 66522

Void of any further evidence or clues to go by it could be quite difficult to place an ID on the individual... Quite a few Medical Officers came out of NY...

That image looks like the MS rather than the US to my eyes - not crystal clear but clear enough. Apart from that, I don't know the first thing about uniforms, sorry!

Edit: actually looking at the enlargement I think I'm swinging the other way.

Did the medical corps always have the MS on their hats? Are we looking for a pic of Dr. Cross?

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

I knew @Frederick14Va would come through.

 

[Frederick14Va]

Majority of Medical Officers were noted wearing plain caps in images, without any adornments. Those that did wear one could be found wearing either "US" (most commonly) or "MS".... (found on occasion)... They did not all wear the same, nor just the MS as many would expect.

As mentioned the U or M can be difficult to determine in a fuzzy image... both Old English characters have a squared up appearance... and you can usually make out the two "humps" at the top of the letter, and an extended flourish at the bottom left... unfortunately both letters have those same features...lol..

Medical Officers were designated as "Staff Officers"... majority wore plain standard issue type shoulder straps and regulation attire... same as most all of the other staff officers wore... So many times can be difficult to identify the individual in an image as being a medical officer... If he might be wearing his belt and sash... Medical Officers sash was Green... that typically is a prime contrasting clue in a group photo... There was a Medical Officers sword that was unique only to the Medical (also same basic design used by Pay Masters)... But even then many carried standard issue Foot Officers swords also...

Since Medical Officers were basically designated as Non-combatant officers, many chose to utilize attire and non-regulation insignias "MS" to set them apart from the rest of the staff as the war dragged on...

 

[lelliott19]

Actually looking at the enlargement I think I'm swinging the other way.
Are we looking for a pic of Dr. Cross?

Thanks @Allie No, its not a picture of my ancestor, Dr Cross. He served on the Confederate side. It is just a picture I picked up at a flea market. I hate to leave them laying. What can I say. I just feel like all of them deserve to be honored with an identity, if possible.

After reading Frederick14Va post - I am also thinking this guy may not be a Medical Officer. I just saw the insignia and read it as an MS and assumed. And you know what they say about assuming.

Thanks @Frederick14Va for your help. Did I at least get the button right? Is it a "muffin button" from NY?

 

[M E Wolf]

May wish to contact the Historian/Archivist of the United States Army. See if there is a picture already identified who this officer may be. Another place to look, would be with the New York Archivist/Historian.

Walter Reed section is now at Bethesda Naval. They may have a path to the Archivist as they were in charge of the Medical Museum with many a relic from the Civil War in their keeping.

M. E. Wolf

 

[Mike Serpa]

Sorry @lelliott19 . No ID from me. I searched the 80+ surgeon photos at the New York Military Museum and a similar number at the LOC.

I found these epaulettes with M.S. (Mike Serpa?)

Civil War Medical Staff Officer's Epaulettes in the original tin storage case, identified to Surgeon Joseph Nye Bates, 15th Mass. Inf. Bates enlisted in the regiment on 8/5/61 and mustered out 7/17/62. Epaulettes with brass crescents retaining 95% of the original gilt, two rows of bullion fringe, one 3/8" diameter, the other 1/4" in diameter. Yellow silk undersides with silvered hooks for attachment to the uniform. Silk with a couple of small holes from wear, very minor, else about perfect sound condition. Each epaulette has affixed inside the brass crescent a 1 1/4" X 3" bullion pad with silver bullion old English MS inside gilt bullion wreath. Interestingly both epaulettes utilize a small one-piece plain brass button. Both epaulettes in overall near mint condition. Housed in the original japanned tin storage case with the remainder of a period paper label with a portion of Bates name in ink script. Case excellent with absolutely no dents or bends, retaining 90% of the original japanned finish with just surface scratches exemplary of normal use.
http://historical.ha.com/itm/milita...cal-staff-officer-s-epaulettes/a/6107-52015.s

 

[Allie]

Sorry @lelliott19 . No ID from me. I searched the 80+ surgeon photos at the New York Military Museum and a similar number at the LOC.

I found these epaulettes with M.S. (Mike Serpa?)
View attachment 66601

Civil War Medical Staff Officer's Epaulettes in the original tin storage case, identified to Surgeon Joseph Nye Bates, 15th Mass. Inf. Bates enlisted in the regiment on 8/5/61 and mustered out 7/17/62. Epaulettes with brass crescents retaining 95% of the original gilt, two rows of bullion fringe, one 3/8" diameter, the other 1/4" in diameter. Yellow silk undersides with silvered hooks for attachment to the uniform. Silk with a couple of small holes from wear, very minor, else about perfect sound condition. Each epaulette has affixed inside the brass crescent a 1 1/4" X 3" bullion pad with silver bullion old English MS inside gilt bullion wreath. Interestingly both epaulettes utilize a small one-piece plain brass button. Both epaulettes in overall near mint condition. Housed in the original japanned tin storage case with the remainder of a period paper label with a portion of Bates name in ink script. Case excellent with absolutely no dents or bends, retaining 90% of the original japanned finish with just surface scratches exemplary of normal use.
http://historical.ha.com/itm/milita...cal-staff-officer-s-epaulettes/a/6107-52015.s

Gosh, I'm not usually impressed by "stuff" but who wouldn't like to own that? Thanks for sharing, very cool.

 

[Pvt.Shattuck]

The uniform has not seen any field service. This guy went straight from his tailor to the photographer. It's a cart d'visite that looks like it was trimmed for an album. Often they were signed- any traces of a pencil signature?
Regulations called for frocks to be half way between hip and knee but his is hemmed fashionably long.
Can't see if the buttons have NYS seal so can't ID them positively.

 

[Frederick14Va]

Remembering that Officers procured and purchased their own uniforms... majority followed given regulations.. some tweaked it a little bit... had uniforms ordered and made by a local tailor back home...

The "muffin button" aka three-piece button isnt solely unique to NY... but they were indeed a favorite that many NY officers used on their uniforms.. regardless of rank level..... Lots and Lots of them have been excavated across Virginia... Of any of the state buttons found from a Northern state... this was by far the most common encountered.. Those following thereafter tend to be those of Mass and Mich.

The Muffin button is commonly found on higher ranked officers, staff and general officers... that's normal.... when you see a muffin style buttons present on a junior officers coat.... which you don't normally find this type on.... dollars to donuts the odds are pretty good he's probably from NY....

This one is the common typical button found on a US Infantry Officers coat (2-peice button) "I" in the center of the shield denotes Infantry..

The NY state muffin button (3-peice) found on many NY officers coats

This one is what is commonly found on senior officers, staff and general officers coats... also a muffin (3-peice) but with the US Eagle.... Ironically many senior Confederate officer coats are found adorned with this same US eagle button type...

 

[lelliott19]

Wow! @Mike Serpa Thank you for looking through all those photos to try and find him. I really appreciate your help. Please keep him "in mind" in case you happen to run across him somewhere else, as any kind of officer. As Frederick14Va pointed out above, I may have misread the insignia on the cap as an "MS" when it is actually a "US."

And those "Mike Serpa" epaulettes are awesome! Thanks for sharing them.

Thanks for the additional info @M E Wolf and @Pvt.Shattuck I appreciate your suggestions and your help.

Thanks @Frederick14Va for the additional info on the buttons. I'm an eager student and appreciate your taking the time to educate me and help me with these photos when I post them. Your knowledge and patience are really appreciated.

 

[Frederick14Va]

Sorry @lelliott19 . No ID from me. I searched the 80+ surgeon photos at the New York Military Museum and a similar number at the LOC.

I found these epaulettes with M.S. (Mike Serpa?)
View attachment 66601

Civil War Medical Staff Officer's Epaulettes in the original tin storage case, identified to Surgeon Joseph Nye Bates, 15th Mass. Inf. Bates enlisted in the regiment on 8/5/61 and mustered out 7/17/62. Epaulettes with brass crescents retaining 95% of the original gilt, two rows of bullion fringe, one 3/8" diameter, the other 1/4" in diameter. Yellow silk undersides with silvered hooks for attachment to the uniform. Silk with a couple of small holes from wear, very minor, else about perfect sound condition. Each epaulette has affixed inside the brass crescent a 1 1/4" X 3" bullion pad with silver bullion old English MS inside gilt bullion wreath. Interestingly both epaulettes utilize a small one-piece plain brass button. Both epaulettes in overall near mint condition. Housed in the original japanned tin storage case with the remainder of a period paper label with a portion of Bates name in ink script. Case excellent with absolutely no dents or bends, retaining 90% of the original japanned finish with just surface scratches exemplary of normal use.
http://historical.ha.com/itm/milita...cal-staff-officer-s-epaulettes/a/6107-52015.s

These full formal dress epaulettes are indeed quite impressive... I have an original set that I obtained years ago, also still in its japanned tin carrying case... however mine aren't an MS surgeons set. The outer row of fringe also denotes rank range by the diameter size of the fringe... The higher the rank the fatter the fringe... Also a rank device attached as well.... Mine are intended by regs to be a Majors set per the fringe size, but evidence on them suggest they had also been used by a Captain..

The center of the tin case has a raised hollow oval container thats part of the case.... the epaulettes sit cradled on it... it has a hinged opening lid... its used to store the other associated items and attachment parts... Different makers of these had different types of attachment hardware... Unfortunately mine was missing the hardware... after a few more museum research trips, I was able to locate a couple other matching originals that still had their parts... eyeballed and studied it close enough to come back home and fabricate replacements for them... Have worn them a couple times (very cautiously) for a few formal events... If you have big shoulders the task is a bit easier to line them up... so I didn't have much trouble... they have to be perfectly aligned to sit correctly... If one has small, narrow, boney, or sloped shoulders I have no clue how they managed to get these to stay in place...lol... They do have some weight for something that's suppose to sit on top of your shoulders for decoration... Putting the jacket on with these already attached is a bit tricky..... The rank insignia device was normally in contrasting silver bullion on a small patch... interestingly these were attached to the epaulettes by small silver straight pins... not sewn on... So many of these are found missing the rank devices... those are hard to find to replace.

This was a number of years ago wearing these (on the left)... Yes the period style mutton-chops were real... and short lived...lol.. looked good in the uniform... outside of that not so much....lol..