Historical Reality?

[E_just_E]

Pudgy old men do realistically personify a sizable portion of Civil War soldiers

Agreed. About as sizable (pun not intended) as the Black Confederates...

 

[PrivateBrooke]

I mean, there weren't many obese 70 year old soldiers on either side.... we let things slide sometimes.

 

[Burning Billy]

Donated my Barney videos to a thrift store long ago.

I guess this isn't my battle to fight, as I don't reenact. But standing on this side, I think such a blatant misrepresentation of history is a travesty. I guess I'm pretty shocked at the amount of women reenactors in these photos. Not the ones in petticoats—but in uniform. Far cries from Francis Clayton and Sarah Edmonds Seelye. Pudgy old men do realistically personify a sizable portion of Civil War soldiers, whilst a 60-year old woman with a musket doesn't cut the mustard.

I have to strongly disagree with the bolded.

The average age of federal soldiers was 26 years old (enlisted & officers) and the average weight was somewhere in the neighborhood of 140 some pounds. They were on the whole young and fit men, not middle aged greybeards who've been fattened up by modern diets and a lack of the hard, physical labor that made up daily life for the average recruit.

Confederate records are a little more spotty but the average Johnny Reb likely wasn't too different from his Union counterpart, other than the region he called home.

Just look at the photographs from the war and then google images for reenactors. There is a stark difference. This is one of the first images that pops up for me when I google "Civil War Reenactors..."

Compare that to this photo:

If I'm not mistaken the Confederate reenactor on the far right appears to be a woman. I can't speak for the accuracy of her gear (uniforms aren't one of my interests), but assuming everything is period correct I'd find her more believable than two of the larger men in that photograph.

Not that I think older and larger men should be excluded either. I just think drawing the realism line at race and gender is arbitrary when a great deal of the white male reenactors are just as far removed in appearance from the average civil war soldier. If we can suspend disbelief for the pudgy greybeard privates, I think we can also do that for a black female captain. The hobby needs to be have more diverse participation and interest anyway if it is to survive.

 

[Legion Para]

@Burning Billy:

While I understand the point you were trying to make, the following photo comes from a Czech website and we know very little about it. The reenactor on the far right is not a female.

http://thepraguewanderer.com/american-civil-war-re-enactments/

 

[Camp Randall Armory]

Google pictures of the Liberty Rifles or 40 Rounds events. There are reenactor that do it right and look the part.

 

[7thWisconsin]

Actually, I'd call that group on the high side of mainstream. Their gear is pretty good and worn correctly. They seem to know what they're doing. Once again, reenactors are hobbyists. There may be a wealth of knowledge, experience and insight in an older reenactor that the hobby would be poorer for his absence. I can speak much more intelligently now than I could when I was 25. My bibliography is bigger. Now I'm not talking about the Yahoo who just wants to dress funny, shoot his CVA Hawken and drink all night. That's a f@rb at any size, shape or age. I recommend reenactors be as authentic as possible in the things that they can affect: 1) reasonably good gear and actually use it. 2) learn about the period, don't just be a clothestree. 3) stay in decent shape. This is a physical activity. You should be able to march a couple miles under arms if you're infantry. (I'm 57, and a distance runner so I take my own advice.) Honestly, at this point I appreciate non-spectator events more than public events because I enjoy the "zone" more. We can't do anything about height, age, or ethnicity, but frankly, if you get the other things right, you have a lot more respect.

 

[The Ninth Ohio]

I'm not so sure our ancestors would feel strongly one way or the other about our vain attempts at "authenticity". It seems like involvement was much more the goal with this account from a post-war GAR encampment in New York.

"G.A.R. Encampment at North Collins​

The rain of Friday somewhat interfered with the arrangement, yet Swift Post number 440, of Hamburg arrived and were well received by the organization on the ground. Some after dinner speeches were made by Leroy S. Oatman, Rev. J. J. Keyes, C.E. Haviland, S.M. Stuart and others. The program for the day was as follows: Reception visiting posts, surgeon's call, guard mounting, company drill, court martial, address, etc., dinner, battalion drill and re-union, sham battle, dress parade. The attendance in the afternoon was good and in the evening it was largely increased. The citizens captured the cannon at the fort by surprise. The Ladies' Relief Corps captured the flag and marched off with it in triumph. There were fireworks, firing of cannons, a hop and a general good time in the evening. On Saturday the cloud cleared away the sun shone out and it was one of the lovilest of days, the Jamestown post arrived in full force and were met by the Angola band at the depot and escorted to the camp. The Indian band arrived in the afternoon. There was an attendance, estimated at 3,500 and great enthusiasm. The sham battle of Fair Oaks being greatly enjoyed by all. The Ladies Relief Corps had a drill and dress parade, Leroy S. Oatman acting as special aid for the occasion. The proceeding of the four days were one grand and continued success, a happy re-union of veterans and a very enjoyable time to the hundreds of visitors. The Angola Band was in attendance during the encampment, and it is safe to say that they are one of the very best in the county."

(Linked from an archived discussion several years ago on authentic campaigner)

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?8487-More-quot-Farbs-quot-of-the-GAR

 

[O' Be Joyful]

 

[The Ninth Ohio]

Years ago I attended a live-action outdoor drama in southern Ohio called Bluejacket. It was about a Native American around the time of the Revolutionary War, I believe.

Never heard of the guy. Never knew the story.

It was pretty cool, they had a rotating stage that could be the inside of a cabin on one side and the outside of a fort on the other. They staged a couple mock battles, including a Native American raid on the fort, complete with real flaming arrows.

However, many of the actors...or reenactors...playing Native Americans were very obviously white. A couple of the soldiers were very obviously women.

Was my understanding of these events "ruined" by these "misrepresentations"? Or was the net effect an overall good one for raising my awareness of this little known story of American History?

 

[James N.]

Authenticity is key! And with modern technology, we could easily run blood tests to make sure the genetic composition of the reenactors is on par with the people they're portraying. As a half Italian with partial Middle Eastern ancestry, I might be screwed though. Maybe should we only exclude people based on how ethnic they appear? Because in that case, I'm white as they come. Easily passable for a classic mayo-lovin Alabama Anglo. But then...who would get to decide that? Would the judgment call be part of the regular enforcement of authenticity guidelines or could we appoint some sort of Race Judge to preside over who's white enough to participate? The restriction might be tough to communicate in advance in the guidelines, so maybe the leadership could decide upon a specific pantone # to be the threshold and then they could hold up paint swatches to everyone's skin when they line up for review. Then again, if true authenticity is what you're striving for, you could just go by the old "mulatto" codes and quiz all reenactors about their parents' and grandparents' racial composition.

Why did we have this old war we're portraying again? I think it had something to do with tariffs...

Ever Hear of the 39th New York, the Garibaldi Guard? How about some members of New Orleans Louisiana Zouave battalions?

 

[Irishtom29]

Blue Jacket should be as famous as Geronimo and Crazy Horse, he gave the Americans far more grief. But they don't make many movies about the Shawnee.

 

[major bill]

Ever Hear of the 39th New York, the Garibaldi Guard? How about some members of New Orleans Louisiana Zouave battalions?

Then James would have to find a local company that reenacted one of these units?

 

[byron ed]

As an aside, I did see a young black man playing Confederate at the 155th Gettysburg. I thought that was great.

For what reason did you think that was great? Explain.

 

[byron ed]

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
WJC posted: "In some ways, it boils down to whether the hobby grows or simply withers away."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The key word in that response is "hobby"

 

[major bill]

If reenacting was limited to the proper age, proper weight, proper ethic make up, and proper sex, there is a good possibility that the number of reenactors at an event would shrink.

To be historically accurate a reenacting company would have no members any older than the oldest man in the original company. Also no one wearing uniform sizes larger than what was issued during the Civil War. Again this would impact the number of reeactors at many events.

 

[byron ed]

In this case I believe it's called authenticity. This whole thread makes me glad I've retired from reenacting.

It was the artillery sargeant in black jogging shoes that reminds me how close I am to retiring from military unit reenacting, but it's the ratio of brass to ranks that has been most wearing on me, especially when the mass of officers -- with all the input that should imply -- have such trouble with even the simplest and most obvious calls in setting up the battle or making decisons on the field.

It was ridiculous that at Gettysburg this year $30-a-head spectators had to see Reb infantry run right up to our guns (authentic for Gettysburg) and then sheepishly back off just because some self-important Union high commander called out for them to desist. It looked and felt so stupid. I had disengaged the splinter bar and was ready to go at it -- as it should have been. Explanation post-mortem: "the rebs couldn't be trusted not to fire in the area of our limber boxes if we had let them through." AS IF it was the these Rebs first rodeo and they knew nothing about gunpowder. These Rebs are our pards and they are experienced, so what BS.

But's that's me whining. None of that spoiled my time there overall.

 

[Burning Billy]

If reenacting was limited to the proper age, proper weight, proper ethic make up, and proper sex, there is a good possibility that the number of reenactors at an event would shrink.

To be historically accurate a reenacting company would have no members any older than the oldest man in the original company. Also no one wearing uniform sizes larger than what was issued during the Civil War. Again this would impact the number of reeactors at many events.

To be clear, since I'm one of the posters who brought up age and weight, I'm not against older heavy-set men participating in Civil War reenacting. It is just a hobby after all, and I don't think the reenactors need to be an exact copy of the men they are portraying to educate the public.

I was just pointing out that the hobby already makes significant exceptions when it comes to authenticity, and that the middle-aged private who has 100 lbs of excess weight is no more authentic for the role they are playing than women or minorities. As such I don't see a reason why the latter should ever be excluded. If old and round white men portraying privates does not strain suspension of disbelief it is only because those exceptions are standard and wide spread, and have been for a long time. If more women and minorities participated (and they should) people would eventually stop focusing on their gender or skin tone as well, and be just as willing to suspend disbelief (and they should).

 

[2rivcob73]

Ours is a diverse society and becoming more diverse. In a diverse society, we ought to encourage all to participate in every endeavor and focus on performance, not skin color.

It is diverse you are 100% right, however, as historical reenactors are we not doing a disservice to the public by representing a scenario that was not culturally correct for the time period? If this person wanted to be a prominent black female from the time period she could have portrayed Harriet Tubman or Mary Elizabeth Bower, both former slaves that became spies to help the cause. Educate the public on those heroes that did extraordinary things not someone that you made up just because. Just a quick google search I came across this article:
https://www.socialstudies.org/publi...american-women-and-espionage-in-the-civil-war
The information is out there if you want to learn about it and actually educate the public.

 

[2rivcob73]

I'm torn between historical accuracy and inclusiveness. Perhaps if more African-Americans and other minorities would partake in Civil War reenacting it may help with the recent protests/bomb threats and help people understand it's not about trying to be offensive... just retelling of a chapter of American history.
"Education is what remains after one has forgotten what one has learned in school" - Albert Einstein.

If done accurately I don't see the issue with it. You research enough there were all sorts of people, ideals etc etc that served on both sides, just do the research so when a spectator asks you can say "Yes actually..." and educate. We do this to honor and educate.

 

[Southern Volunteer]

I have no problem with people who may not necessarily look the part of a rank and file soldier or 1860's civilian dressing as one for a living history or re-enactment. I've loaned a uniform to a female to participate at one living history and I'm doing an event in October where I plan on bringing at least two females in Confederate uniform. Like the New York Times article that's circulating on this site now says, the hobby is declining. We're not in a position to turn away anyone who wants to do it and as long as someone don't try to pass off their unable to fix anachronism (sex, race, weight, diction, you name it) as fact what does it matter?

The public is intelligent enough to know that the average soldier wasn't female just as they're intelligent enough to know that the average weight of a soldier wasn't 250 pounds. It's suspension of disbelief.

I will draw the line though at impressions of a specific individual. If you're going to try to portray a real person then I'd argue I need to be able to tell who you're portraying from a distance without even talking to you. If I have to ask who you are you haven't done your job of becoming that person. If you can't grow facial hair at all, then maybe Jeb Stuart just wasn't the role you were born to play.