Help with firing mechanism question

[sbeckert]

I am a new member and have what I believe is a .58 cal Belgium Lemille musket. The firing mechanism does not work and there is clearly some sort of spring missing from the mechanism. There is also an obvious broken part as seen in the attached photos. Can anyone tell me 1) what kind of musket this is 2) what parts are boken and/or missing, and 3) where/how could I find/have made the required parts? This musket was given to me by grandfather 60 years ago. Thank you.

 

[CowCavalry]

No expert here by any means but it is missing the main spring, which is the spring that causes the hammer to drop. Something looks broken as well in the mechanism of the lock, I don't know the term, is it the "dog"? Someone will be along soon wiser than I.

By the way, the musket looks in excellent condition and what an heirloom from your grandfather!

 

[Grayrock Volunteer]

Ditto what @CowCavalry said. You might be able to get a replacement from Lodgewood Manufacturing or S&S Firearms. If you strike out there complete back action French and Belgian locks are pretty common and generally inexpensive.

I take it this is a "3 band" musket? If it is indeed .58 caliber it is what collectors refer to as a "Pondir rifle" and is actually quite scarce and much desired by those who collect imported arms.
I, for one, would love to see some additional photos.

Thanks,
Garrett

 

[Booner]

I can only answer your #2 question.

As previously stated, your missing the main spring, and the stirrup (some might call it a link and pin), that attaches to the tumbler is broken as you mentioned. The mainspring has, what I would term, a fork in one end that the stirrup fits into, and the stirrup is connected to the tumbler which, when released from the sear, rotates the hammer, allowing the weapon to be fired. (The mainspring also has a pin on it's side which fits into that hole towards the rear of the lock). The hammer is connected to the tumbler via a screw on the other side of the lock, which I see you've removed. Also, it looks like you're missing a sear spring, which forces the sear (the long "L" shaped thing that has the "XIO" stamped on it), into the notches in the tumbler. This allows the lock to be placed in either half or full cock and remain there under tension. When you pull the trigger, your finger is applying force against this sear spring and that releases the sear, allowing the mainspring to rotate the tumbler and hammer, and then things go "bang". Perhaps, in this case, since it's a military weapon, the mainspring may serve that function, but that would mean the trigger pull would be horrendously stout.

I think you're pretty lucky. I assume the stirrup broke and when that happened, all the tension on the mainspring was released. Many times when that happens, the mainspring gouges out a chunk of would on the wooden lock mortise. I don't see any indication that that happened and over time, someone lost those two springs. Or maybe someone was messing with the lock when it was off the musket and the stirrup broke, (maybe they didn't use a mainspring vice?) and parts went flying. Was your Grandfather blind in one eye?

It is a very nice musket.

This musket has what is termed as a Back Action Lock. You also see them on a lot of target rifles of the period as these lock have a very fast lock time.

And welcome to the forum.

 

[CowCavalry]

Here is the detail on the inside of a lock. Its not a back action lock like yours, but similar parts, just in a different configuration.

 

[JOHN42768]

Now that your questions have been answered, good luck in your parts search

 

[sbeckert]

Ditto what @CowCavalry said. You might be able to get a replacement from Lodgewood Manufacturing or S&S Firearms. If you strike out there complete back action French and Belgian locks are pretty common and generally inexpensive.

I take it this is a "3 band" musket? If it is indeed .58 caliber it is what collectors refer to as a "Pondir rifle" and is actually quite scarce and much desired by those who collect imported arms.
I, for one, would love to see some additional photos.

Thanks,
Garrett

Thanks. I'll post a few more pix shortly.

 

[sbeckert]

I can only answer your #2 question.

As previously stated, your missing the main spring, and the stirrup (some might call it a link and pin), that attaches to the tumbler is broken as you mentioned. The mainspring has, what I would term, a fork in one end that the stirrup fits into, and the stirrup is connected to the tumbler which, when released from the sear, rotates the hammer, allowing the weapon to be fired. (The mainspring also has a pin on it's side which fits into that hole towards the rear of the lock). The hammer is connected to the tumbler via a screw on the other side of the lock, which I see you've removed. Also, it looks like you're missing a sear spring, which forces the sear (the long "L" shaped thing that has the "XIO" stamped on it), into the notches in the tumbler. This allows the lock to be placed in either half or full cock and remain there under tension. When you pull the trigger, your finger is applying force against this sear spring and that releases the sear, allowing the mainspring to rotate the tumbler and hammer, and then things go "bang". Perhaps, in this case, since it's a military weapon, the mainspring may serve that function, but that would mean the trigger pull would be horrendously stout.

I think you're pretty lucky. I assume the stirrup broke and when that happened, all the tension on the mainspring was released. Many times when that happens, the mainspring gouges out a chunk of would on the wooden lock mortise. I don't see any indication that that happened and over time, someone lost those two springs. Or maybe someone was messing with the lock when it was off the musket and the stirrup broke, (maybe they didn't use a mainspring vice?) and parts went flying. Was your Grandfather blind in one eye?

It is a very nice musket.

This musket has what is termed as a Back Action Lock. You also see them on a lot of target rifles of the period as these lock have a very fast lock time.

And welcome to the forum.

Thank you for the great info. I don't remember my grandfather having any head or face wounds when I went to visit him LOL. Actually I seem to remember that I may have broken it as a kid in the early 60's by continuously dry-firing and playing with it. Dumb kid!

 

[sbeckert]

A few more pix...Thanks to all for your comments.

 

[James N.]

Welcome to the forums from the host of the Stonewall Jackson Forum and another antique firearms enthusiast!

 

[Grayrock Volunteer]

Thanks for the additional pics! It is indeed a Pondir rifle; one of 3,241 "French Rifle Muskets" delivered by John Pondir between January and March of 1863. They are essentially .58 caliber versions of the French M1857 Rifle-Musket with an Enfield style rear sight on them. Though the Ordnance Department labeled them French the arms were Belgian made like yours. The mis-identification was due to the resemblance to French arms produced after 1842, which all had back action locks.

Very nice gun. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Booner]

And here is a You Tube video of how a back action lock works and is disassembled/reassembled.

 

[sbeckert]

And here is a You Tube video of how a back action lock works and is disassembled/reassembled.

Great video - Thanks.

 

[poorjack]

Call Phil at S&S, he might be able to help with parts.