Help wanted please

rebelatsea

Captain
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Location
Kent ,England.
As a result of new information I'm getting after my book was published almost three years ago, i have started revising the manuscript (now version 18!).
whilst sorting through my plans collection I discovered a question from Dean Stehman, that sadly I never answered.

He wanted to know if I knew anything about the Sydney? Porter & James Watson proposal of 2nd March 1862 for a triple screw vessel costed at CS$ 110k, and gave me the reference : New Orleans local (?) 2,2, 150 ORNs (?) not clear if this is the vessel above.

May I ask our shipbuilding gurus if anyone can put some meat on this one please.
 
Hello John,

I don't have it in front of me but I believe Dean was referring to a Porter & Watson proposal for a casemated ironclad to be built in New Orleans for the state of Mississippi. The legislature did not approve of its construction and it was never started. This is based upon a one page proposal by P & W that came up for auction a number of years ago. Bob H. has a copy and I believe it was to be 196' long and be powered by 4 HP boilers locally obtained. After reading the proposal and examining the plans in the CWNM I believe P & W brought the plans to Mobile and used them for the basis of the two ironclads (Tombigbee) they built there. The CWNM plans show twin screws, 4 HP boilers, diamond hull with sheer (unlike J. Porter, Graves or Pierce hulls) and a square casemate.

All the best,
Bil
 
Hello John,

I don't have it in front of me but I believe Dean was referring to a Porter & Watson proposal for a casemated ironclad to be built in New Orleans for the state of Mississippi. The legislature did not approve of its construction and it was never started. This is based upon a one page proposal by P & W that came up for auction a number of years ago. Bob H. has a copy and I believe it was to be 196' long and be powered by 4 HP boilers locally obtained. After reading the proposal and examining the plans in the CWNM I believe P & W brought the plans to Mobile and used them for the basis of the two ironclads (Tombigbee) they built there. The CWNM plans show twin screws, 4 HP boilers, diamond hull with sheer (unlike J. Porter, Graves or Pierce hulls) and a square casemate.

All the best,
Bil
Thank you Bil,

Could that be the vessel referred to as "gunboat no 1" in Bob's thesis ?
GUNBOAT No 1.jpg
 
Bil. I have in my book the following entry:


The James Watson Contract

Navy Secretary Mallory proposed in his report on progress at New Orleans of 27th February 1862 to construct two steamers for lake service. James Watson contracted to build one vessel supervised by Sidney Porter, to be built in his shipyard on the slip vacated by CSS Carondelet, pursuant to a contract of March 24th 1862 for the sun of CS$ 25,000. There may however have been an intention to build two of these as four "oscillating engines for the gunboat at Bayou St John" cost CS$24,000 on April 20. As the term "engine" was then used to refer to one steam cylinder, we can infer that each vessel would have had two "engines".
If started, no doubt Sydney Porter would have modified the basic design to suit local conditions.

Dimensions: 193ft OA x 43.5ft EX x 9ft D, 1,079 tons, two screws, 9 knots
Guns: 8
The ships would have been constructed to the plan draft of Gunboat no 1 attributed to John L Porter. There are however some differences in configuration which indicate he may not have been responsible.

Is this a confused report of the proposal you cited or do we have yet another mystery?
 
Hello John,

It's been a busy week as usual. Let me see if I can clarify a few details, or add more confusion. First, Mallory was not always precise in his quarterly reports and tended to color his comments with optimism. To give you an example he reported on more than one occasion that the Tifts had started the construction of the two smaller ironclads when they actually had not. Although those ironclads were authorized by Mallory in December the Tifts never laid them down. They did lay the foundation for the ways and prepared them; they did obtain the machinery sets; and they did gather materials to 'start' actual construction, but it was never done. They spent all of their final efforts trying to complete the Mississippi.

When the Carondelets were launched at Bayou St. John, and the Morgans launched in Mobile (January-February 1862), Mallory wished to order and construct follow-on gunboats. The ones in Mobile were to be enlarged and improved Morgans, and I assume the ones for 'lake' service were to be improved Carondelets. Then events took a turn in a different direction and this is where the confusion begins. Mallory had an extensive wooden gunboat program well under way and some ironclad projects underway. There were numerous proposals for ironclads and builders could expect to make a substantial profit on their construction. This I believe, motivated Porter & Watson to independently propose their project to the state of Mississippi. Shortly thereafter the Virginia made her successful debut at Hampton Roads and this changed everything. Overnight Mallory changed his plans and wished to focus only on ironclads. He went before the Confederate Congress and asked for funds to build at least 50 ironclads, and as one commentator stated, 'He might as well have asked for the moon'.

The result of this event was that wooden gunboats underway would be allowed to finish. Future contracts would be prioritized to ironclad construction. A year later Mallory realized the usefulness of wooden gunboats for regional defense and authorized what I refer to as the 'third generation' of wooden gunboats of which the Pee Dee was among the first. When the four sets of oscillating engines were made available in New Orleans I believe the P & W 'Lake gunboat' contract was modified to become a pair of screw propelled, diamond hull, ironclads. By this time, the state of Mississippi had already declined the P & W proposal but P & W had already prepared plans. I believe they returned to New Orleans, modified the plans, and prepared construction on Bayou St. John for the now 'Lake ironclads'. When New Orleans fell they left for Mobile and used these plans for the Tombigbee ironclads. Although never finished they were considered very well built, and high quality, strong hulls upon arrival in Mobile.

Meanwhile in Mobile, Henry Bassett had his own plans for an 'ironclad floating battery'. Mallory was pleased with his work on the Morgan and wanted him to start construction of the 'improved Morgans'. Bassett was able to use the success of the Virginia and his own plans, to convince Mallory to contract for a pair of ironclads instead. These became the Tuscaloosa and Huntsville. They were never described as ironclad gunboats, but always as ironclad batteries. The contract price that Bassett negotiated was also substantially higher than usual suggesting the additional expense of the armor and perhaps much more robust construction.

The profile and plan drawing above was done by me over a decade ago as a simple schematic plan to determine a possible layout for the Tombigbees. Hence, the simple lines and rectangular gunports. The original plan in the CWNM is missing the bow half or right hand side of the plans. That part of the drawing is conjecture by me and in my original schematic I had included as alternates a straight stem with ram, the raked stem with ram, and an Albemarle style stem, all of which were plausible. When first seeing the plan I was immediately struck by the sheer of the hull, something not seen in any other CSN designs. This would have made them a bit more seaworthy and drier in coastal waters suggesting possible off shore use. For years the CWNM considered 'Gunboat No.1' plan to be the Tuscaloosa, however, the limited survey done in 1985 shows the Tuscaloosas with clearly angular lines, no apparent sheer and straight hull sides. To me, the sheer hull, twin screws and four HP boilers suggest this is a drawing of the Tombigbees.

Regarding costs at that time, the quoted $110k may have been appropriate for a completely equipped, (armor, machinery, armament) 196' triple screw ironclad. The cost of $25k would have covered a smaller wooden hull and casemate, but not armor or armament. A separate $25k would have covered machinery alone. Such are my thoughts at this time.

All the best,
Bil
 
Ok, I follow your logic Bil with regard to Porter & Watson, makes sense to me !
That plan I used was from Bob Holcombe's thesis, I left off the attribution which I will duly correct. He attributed gunboat no 1 to John L Porter, but as you say it should have been Sydney J. The plan was used for two of the "Bigbee" boats, but there ware also two paddle vessels under construction at the same yard. My Late friend Ben Schuman thought they were variants of the gunboat plan, however , is it possible that these were actual two "improved " Morgans ? All four ships were to have 2x 7" MLR and 2x 8" SB Brooke. There were also two 8 gun "Morgan " class being constructed in South Carolina at wars end which I now take to be the "improved" version.
The rationale for the Morgans is a puzzle, they are almost like protected cruisers before there was such a thing. I have always seen them as perhaps being scouts/ escorts for the ironclads in coastal waters.

Mallory seems to have got himself in a muddle with regards to the Tift projects:
In December 1861 E.M. Ivens and John Clarke proposed to N & A Tift to build two small ironclad ram gunboats on the plan of CSS Mississippi, utilising existing machinery, but needing new boilers. One vessel would have low pressure machinery, the other, high pressure machinery. Both having two 8-foot screws geared to work off a layshaft. This machinery had been obtained by Messrs Ivens and Clark, in fact there were three engines and it was proposed to produce two good engines out of these.
The Tifts found that there would be enough materiel left after completion of CSS Mississippi to commence construction of these two vessels, for which piled building slips were constructed.
Secretary Mallory approved the project in January 1862, and they were contracted for on 24th January with Ivens & Clarke. The Tifts had prepared outline drawings of the vessels for Mallory, with detailed drawings to follow.
Secretary Mallory appears to have been in some confusion, as on 18th January 1862 he asked for details of the gunboats, and suggested they build one large vessel, which as we have seen the Tifts had already proposed to him. On the 9th April Mallory sent a copy of plans of John L Porter's 150ft class ironclad gunboat, probably indicating that they should build the vessels to that specification despite having already approved the Ivens & Clark vessels. The brothers replied on 24th January sending him the plans of the intended vessels.
 
The Tifts found that there would be enough materiel left after completion of CSS Mississippi to commence construction of these two vessels, for which piled building slips were constructed.
Secretary Mallory approved the project in January 1862, and they were contracted for on 24th January with Ivens & Clarke. The Tifts had prepared outline drawings of the vessels for Mallory, with detailed drawings to follow.
I was interested if you know whether these were to be financed the same way as the CSS Mississippi?
Thanks,
Lubliner.
 
Well the bills would be submitted by Ivens & Clarke so i would think they would be paid by the treasury via the CSN.
Everything covered here was twin-screw action. I saw no triple-screw mentioned. Just 4 boilers, one cylinder, and various other. I am not in a need to know, but wanted to thank you for your patience in responding to me @rebelatsea. I finally understood the question concerning that $110k so progress was made at least for me.
Lubliner.
 

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