Help identifying this muzzle of a handgun.

Do you believe this to be a Allen and Wheelock revolver pepperbox muzzle

  • Yes that is a Allen and Wheelock revolver pepperbox muzzle

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I’m unsure

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • It’s another handgun muzzle

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I do not think it to be of another object, but I am open to the idea of it being a pistol

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    7

Orion.M.E

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Jan 17, 2021
important update: I made this update after the post while examining the photo, I realized that it was the muzzle of a handgun. I believe it to be the muzzle of a Allen and Wheelock revolver pepperbox handgun, it’s larger then must muzzles and it sure as heck looks like it. I have made a poll for a voting on if you guys believe it to be a Allen and Wheelock revolver pepperbox Handgun.
18837020-86F8-44DD-9164-6287ECBF2CC1.jpeg


Also if you have the time please vote.


in this photo of my ancestor Charles B. Wilson of the 34th Illinois company A I am fairly certain that on his right side I have found a gun holster for a pistol. For about a month I have had the most random instinct to find out what pistol he used for no reason, heck he may of not had a pistol in the first place. But my gut is telling me find out what pistol he used so I’m following my gut on this random question on what pistol he used. While doing some research I was able to figure out that he had used a .69 caliber Springfield 1842 musket rifle. Hope this helps.

0B5190CE-42C3-48E3-9173-7085D8CF9140.jpeg
 
Last edited:

lupaglupa

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Apr 18, 2019
You might want to put these pictures in the Small Arms forum - the folks who know more about guns and their holsters will be looking at threads there.
 

Orion.M.E

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Jan 17, 2021
Plus the bayonet is more thin then this object in Charles photo.

Plus the bayonet is on the wrong side of the belt.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

kotkinjs1

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May 25, 2017
I assume you're talking about the shape behind the smaller cap box. It's obviously a tricky ID. What I don't see is a top flap where you'd normally see one, curving up from behind the holster body, over the top, then down the front. Like a standard 1860 type holster. It almost seems to be a solid piece of....something. It could be a slim jim-type of holster I guess with the open mouth showing, but then it's an empty holster in a photo...why?
 

Orion.M.E

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Jan 17, 2021
I assume you're talking about the shape behind the smaller cap box. It's obviously a tricky ID. What I don't see is a top flap where you'd normally see one, curving up from behind the holster body, over the top, then down the front. Like a standard 1860 type holster. It almost seems to be a solid piece of....something. It could be a slim jim-type of holster I guess with the open mouth showing, but then it's an empty holster in a photo...why?
I just updated it, I believe it to be a muzzle of a Allen and Wheelock revolver pepperbox pistol, but yes the one behind the cap box
 

Orion.M.E

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Jan 17, 2021
That would be a very strange way of carrying a pistol - muzzle up - no?
Yes that is strange, but he may of persuaded the photographer to have the pistol upwards as a symbol for a specific achievement he did, he Was the first of his entire regiment to fire the first shot at the battle of Shiloh, his units first major battle as well as their first victor. So he may wanted it pointed up as a symbol. Symbols in photography actually started the very year Charles was born, Charles my ancestor. Hippolyte Bayard was a photographer who was one of the very first people in the world to invent photography, however a man you may know of as Louis Daguerre was a man with high power in the French government who did what he could to put Bayard in the shadows of history as his achievement went forgotten, Bayard made a photograph of himself depicting his suicide of a drowned man. He used this photo as a movement to be recognize, this was the very first known hoax photograph in history as well as being the first to have objects as symbols.
 
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Orion.M.E

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Jan 17, 2021
I think that is the throat of his bayonet scabbard. He has his cap pouch on the wrong side, but that could be an attempt at flipping accoutrements so they look "right" in photos.
that does sound possible, but the thing is in the photo the object at the end is flat, with a bit of a hole but not really at the same time. Could be the light but I think it’s the end of a muzzle.
 
Joined
Feb 23, 2013
Location
Texas
that does sound possible, but the thing is in the photo the object at the end is flat, with a bit of a hole but not really at the same time. Could be the light but I think it’s the end of a muzzle.
How would be be able to attach a pistol to his belt with the barrel pointed up?

There is a triangular darker area in the center of the face of the object that is consistent with the opening of a bayonet scabbard.
 

Orion.M.E

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Jan 17, 2021
How would be be able to attach a pistol to his belt with the barrel pointed up?

There is a triangular darker area in the center of the face of the object that is consistent with the opening of a bayonet scabbard.
It don’t really look that much like a triangle

AE1E031F-F069-40D2-B829-FC0E3884F01B.jpeg
 
Joined
Feb 23, 2013
Location
Texas
The image is reversed, so the bayonet should be on what appears to be his right side. I believe that he put the cap pouch on that side as well; either accidentally or in an attempt to reverse his accoutrements to compensate for the flip.

There is no way he could position a pistol like that, imho. Even if he rigged some kind of unknown holster, why would you want the muzzle pointing up at you?

Here is a highlight I did that shows the triangular opening of what I believe is his scabbard.

Untitled.jpg
 

Orion.M.E

Private
Joined
Jan 17, 2021
The image is reversed, so the bayonet should be on what appears to be his right side. I believe that he put the cap pouch on that side as well; either accidentally or in an attempt to reverse his accoutrements to compensate for the flip.

There is no way he could position a pistol like that, imho. Even if he rigged some kind of unknown holster, why would you want the muzzle pointing up at you?

Here is a highlight I did that shows the triangular opening of what I believe is his scabbard.

View attachment 388691
Then you are right. This forum has been a lose lead. I concede
 
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May 1, 2015
Location
Upstate N.Y.
important update: I made this update after the post while examining the photo, I realized that it was the muzzle of a handgun. I believe it to be the muzzle of a Allen and Wheelock revolver pepperbox handgun, it’s larger then must muzzles and it sure as heck looks like it. I have made a poll for a voting on if you guys believe it to be a Allen and Wheelock revolver pepperbox Handgun.
View attachment 388661

Also if you have the time please vote.


in this photo of my ancestor Charles B. Wilson of the 34th Illinois company A I am fairly certain that on his right side I have found a gun holster for a pistol. For about a month I have had the most random instinct to find out what pistol he used for no reason, heck he may of not had a pistol in the first place. But my gut is telling me find out what pistol he used so I’m following my gut on this random question on what pistol he used. While doing some research I was able to figure out that he had used a .69 caliber Springfield 1842 musket rifle. Hope this helps.

View attachment 388672
I believe this is an Allan & Thurber ribbed barrel Worcester baby dragoon pepperbox .34 cal. and 5" barrel. Reference " Ethan Allen and Allen & Wheelock; their guns and legacy" by Paul Henry page 52
 

Orion.M.E

Private
Joined
Jan 17, 2021
I believe this is an Allan & Thurber ribbed barrel Worcester baby dragoon pepperbox .34 cal. and 5" barrel. Reference " Ethan Allen and Allen & Wheelock; their guns and legacy" by Paul Henry page 52
Thank you for the input. My theory seems to crumble when the pistol seems to be facing up and not down. People believe that it’s the throat of a bayonet even though a bayonet isn’t that thick. I have a gut feeling he used a pepper box pistol, I don’t know why. He fired the first shot at the battle of Shiloh of his regiment so I think it be likely he used a pistol.

The image is reversed, so the bayonet should be on what appears to be his right side. I believe that he put the cap pouch on that side as well; either accidentally or in an attempt to reverse his accoutrements to compensate for the flip.

There is no way he could position a pistol like that, imho. Even if he rigged some kind of unknown holster, why would you want the muzzle pointing up at you?

Here is a highlight I did that shows the triangular opening of what I believe is his scabbard.

View attachment 388691
I should also point out that in an earlier post I explained why I think it would be facing upward, I also think it’s worth mentioning is that the throat of the bayonet is similar but your theory has a problem. In the photo it doesn’t have anything sticking Outwards or and holes on its sides. Plus the end isn’t a big hole, that could be played up to shading. Plus the bayonet isn’t that thick, plus it doesn’t really resemble much of the case you’d put a bayonet in. On the other hand putting a pistol that way is weird, but we should make it clear is that people can mess up on how they put their gun on their belt. For example in movies this does happen a lot and some films make gags out of them.

I believe this is an Allan & Thurber ribbed barrel Worcester baby dragoon pepperbox .34 cal. and 5" barrel. Reference " Ethan Allen and Allen & Wheelock; their guns and legacy" by Paul Henry page 52
By the way, if it’s fine a vote on the poles would be appreciated.

I believe this is an Allan & Thurber ribbed barrel Worcester baby dragoon pepperbox .34 cal. and 5" barrel. Reference " Ethan Allen and Allen & Wheelock; their guns and legacy" by Paul Henry page 52
Question, can you show me the page you had for reference?
 

RobertH

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Joined
Jan 25, 2019
Is this a studio photograph? It could be an unused rifle or shotgun prop that was leaning almost out of the picture frame.

I really don't think it's a Pepperbox. Although I do love me some Pepperboxes. Saw my first one when I was 10 and have been fascinated with them ever since.
 

Orion.M.E

Private
Joined
Jan 17, 2021
Is this a studio photograph? It could be an unused rifle or shotgun prop that was leaning almost out of the picture frame.

I really don't think it's a Pepperbox. Although I do love me some Pepperboxes. Saw my first one when I was 10 and have been fascinated with them ever since.
I don’t know much about the photos location, all I know is it’s a tin that’s either a ninth or sixth plate. If it was a shot gun wouldn’t we see the rest of it sticking out?
 

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