(help) 13-star First national?

[kepi]

Can someone direct me to a 13-star First National that was actually used in combat by a Confederate unit? Most of the flags I find are 7 stars. How many stars did most first nationals have anyway?

 

[John Winn]

My notes indicate there were four versions:

3-4-61 to 5-21-61 7 stars
5-22-61 to 7-2-61 9 stars
7-3-61 to 11-28-16 11 stars
11-29-61 to 5-1-63 13 stars

then replaced by second national

I don't know what units flew what or when though.

 

[kepi]

My notes indicate there were four versions:

3-4-61 to 5-21-61 7 stars
5-22-61 to 7-2-61 9 stars
7-3-61 to 11-28-16 11 stars
11-29-16 to 5-1-63 13 stars

then replaced by second national

I don't know what units flew what or when though.

I know, but I am having a hard time finding a 13-star First National that was actually used. Most seems to be 7 like this one.

 

[CMWinkler]

This is a 15 star 1st National carried by Bate's 2nd Tennessee at Shiloh.

 

[Frederick14Va]

There were indeed 13 star FN's used. Majority of FN were local made or presentation flags, so the size, and star number and orientation had many variances known. Most of the collectible reproductions typically are found either of the 7 or 11 star versions in a circle... that was only one of many types that existed... Not all flags had stars only reflecting the number of states. Have also seen some 8, 9, 12, 14 and 15 star FN flags out there..... Many of the 7-11 star versions were commonly replaced... hence many of them were returned back home and survived.... many of the latter 13 star versions tended to remain in service till worn out... so even though there should be more of them that existed, but in another regard had a less survival rate... Also many field units generally had adopted other flag designs in the field so fewer examples captured to have entered war department storage or kept as war trophy's.

(14 star variant)

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

There were indeed 13 star FN's used. Majority of FN were local made or presentation flags, so the size, and star number and orientation had many variances known. Most of the collectible reproductions typically are found either of the 7 or 11 star versions in a circle... that was only one of many types that existed... Not all flags had stars only reflecting the number of states. Have also seen some 8, 9, 12, 14 and 15 star FN flags out there..... Many of the 7-11 star versions were commonly replaced... hence many of them were returned back home and survived.... many of the latter 13 star versions tended to remain in service till worn out... so even though there should be more of them that existed, but in another regard had a less survival rate... Also many field units generally had adopted other flag designs in the field so fewer examples captured to have entered war department storage or kept as war trophy's.


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(14 star variant)
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Great info. Thanks for some original examples.

 

[kepi]

Thanks, all, I have a First National like this in my garage along with a 34 star round Union and was curious if it was ever carried by Confederate units since I have only seen the 7 star variant.

 

[Union_Buff]

There were indeed 13 star FN's used. Majority of FN were local made or presentation flags, so the size, and star number and orientation had many variances known. Most of the collectible reproductions typically are found either of the 7 or 11 star versions in a circle... that was only one of many types that existed... Not all flags had stars only reflecting the number of states. Have also seen some 8, 9, 12, 14 and 15 star FN flags out there..... Many of the 7-11 star versions were commonly replaced... hence many of them were returned back home and survived.... many of the latter 13 star versions tended to remain in service till worn out... so even though there should be more of them that existed, but in another regard had a less survival rate... Also many field units generally had adopted other flag designs in the field so fewer examples captured to have entered war department storage or kept as war trophy's.


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(14 star variant)
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This is some rather interesting information about Confederate battle flags - thank you for posting it

 

[kepi]

This is some rather interesting information about Confederate battle flags - thank you for posting it

This is a good site for flag information
http://www.loeser.us/flags/civil.html

 

[M.Warren]

12 Star NC Reg. Variant.

 

[Buckeye Bill]

Great thread, guys.......

 

[DR_Hanna]

Love these flags. Was not even dimly aware of all the variations there were. Those Confederates were certainly an optimistic bunch of folks, weren't they?

 

[AUG]

Here are a couple 12 star variants carried by Arkansas regiments early on.

This one was presented to the 8th Arkansas Infantry by Colonel William K. Patterson when it was first enrolled in state service in July, 1861. The A and star in the center probably represent Arkansas and the star outside the circle represents Missouri. This flag was replaced by a Hardee pattern in early 1862.

This one was carried by the 11th Arkansas Infantry early in the war.

 

[jack1492]

Was there a particular regulation for the size of a Confederate First National Flag made in May 1861?

 

[Poor Sharecropper's Son]

Going by the various pics there doesn't appear to be much size regulation, but maybe someone here could be more specific

 

[jack1492]

My notes indicate there were four versions:

3-4-61 to 5-21-61 7 stars
5-22-61 to 7-2-61 9 stars
7-3-61 to 11-28-16 11 stars
11-29-61 to 5-1-63 13 stars

then replaced by second national

I don't know what units flew what or when though.

My understanding is the 15 star CS First National pattern flags date to the first week of April 1861. After that everyone knew Maryland and Delaware were not going to be able to secede.

 

[Frederick14Va]

Was there a particular regulation for the size of a Confederate First National Flag made in May 1861?

There was no official "regulation" on the First Nationals.. dimensions as well as star orientation was at the whim of the maker... as seen in images above there was a rather wide array of star patterns (or lack thereof) that were used... Majority of these were homemade or had made by local tailor or merchant... and/or provided to the Company/Regiment in question as a presentation gift.... Later flags were normally procured and issued via the QM depot system... hence those flags tended to have a much more uniform design and standardized pattern to them. Yet may still have slight differences between those issued from different depots...

 

[jack1492]

Don't the number of stars in the canton of a First National flag date the flag to a particular time period? Stars can be and were added after particular dates but I don't think you'll see where stars were taken off.

 

[Frederick14Va]

Star Orientation = placement pattern

Generally a particular flag would reflect the respective number of states represented that existed at the time it was made.... Quite rare to find a flag where stars were added later as number of states increased... Many times the outlay of the original star placement and arrangement typically didn't always provide sufficient room to add more... They frequently would continue to use the initial flag till need for replacement... Otherwise units would be replacing flags nearly every month or so in those early months of the war...

 

[jack1492]

I know of a FN flag that was made in late May 1861. The flag was last seen in 1908 when it was taken out of the Museum of the Confederacy (Richmond) by the owner. When captured in April 1862 it had 9 stars in a circle with 4 stars arranged in a square in the center for a total of 13. I assume it was originally made with the 9 stars and the four in the center were added in Nov. 1861 or within a few months of that but that is a guess.