Harper's Ferry Model 16 Markings

[Chris Carroll]

History Detectives for Model 16s I enlist you help. Picked this up a few weeks ago, a walk in at a Kinston, NC pawnshop. Talked the guy down to about 1/2 of retail and picked it up. It started life as a Harper's Ferry 16 flintlock dated 1835 converted at sometime at the Arsenal to Belgium cone conversion. They say this is only done at the national arsenals this style conversion. The trigger guard tang is stamped CBC (Calvin Bailey Cross) Ast Insp at Springfield 62-63, so mayb...e this is when this was converted but that seems late. The underside of the barrel is also stamped CBC so not a fluke. Prior to Speingfield he worked at the Windsor Armory for 27 years. Also on trigger guard tang is a L or D, something. The top of barrel is stamped P in circle eagle w/feathers facing right and V. Below V is an N something. You can make out the 5 in 1835 in barrel tang. Underside of barrel T 14 Roman 4 2 dots an roman X 3 dots CBC. Lock front Harpers Ferry 1835, Eagle US Flash pan J something then 3 dots. Lock plate reverse marked 4 5 TA TS, bridal marked something H. Bridal screw marked T. Wood shows remains of oval cartouche opposite lock, and in front of butt tang a large oval cartouche. This forward butt tang mark I have seen on a model 41 last pic. Don't think it's rack bruise. All thoughts greatly appreciated.

 

[Chris Carroll]

 

[Chris Carroll]

 

[TinCan]

Wow that thing has more symbols on it than an Egyptian tomb.

 

[Craig L Barry]

Let's start with what we do know, "US" is United States. If so, I'm also of the understanding that the United States Armory in Springfield was not converting flintlocks to percussion in the 1860s. That project wrapped up at least a decade earlier. Although with the 1835 date, this one was at the tail end of US 1816 production and would have been a likely candidate for conversion to percussion by the cone in barrel method at one of the National Armories, just as it appears.

It's a good, honest looking musket with a cracked bridle (in the lock), wood cracked and missing---it obviously saw hard use in its lifetime of service. But for whom?

 

[originalrebelyell]

I would love to find one like that.

 

[Chris Carroll]

Craig, I would tend to agree, most converted in 40-50's. yet the twice stamped CBC (Calvin Bailey Cross) Ast Insp at Springfield 62-63 has me puzzled? Perhaps this weapon was captured on southern battlefield and turned into Springfield and inspected?" Speculation.

 

[Craig L Barry]

I think you are making an assumption that the trigger guard was marked at the time of conversion, and that was not likely to be the case. And also it would be unwise to assume that list of employees/inspectors/sub-inspectors was complete with dates of employment. By all evidence that was not the case. See R.N. Kennedy's excellent monograph Notes on the Model 1816 Flintlock Musket for American Society of Arms Collectors. He notes: "This list of inspectors is included only as a reference to the collector. Although I feel that the names are accurate, I do not feel that the dates of employment are correct because I have owned or seen muskets inspected by these men that were dated much later than the list indicates these men worked. Most of these dates were compiled by previous students of the arms."

Repost from me of a similar question from a year ago (or so).

Back to the original question about how the arm is marked, it essentially breaks down into three categories:

1. Initial manufacture markings by either the Armory, or private contractor including inspection and proof marks
2. Conversion (to percussion) markings, including re-proof and sometimes lock plate date changes
3. Idenification markings placed on the weapon by whoever it was issued to, or picked it up. Generally initials in the stock, etc.

 

[Chris Carroll]

Yes Craig I was making an assumption because the trigger guard & bottom of barrel marked CBC. It may or may not be Cross. I read his obit, prior to Springfield he was at Windsor Armory, but I don't know his dates of tenure. I honestly don't know CBC is this inspector Cross. I have seen thus far 4 M-16's with these initials (3 Springfield's & 1 HF), an 1 M-61. I was just hoping someone could help me with this Madrid of marking that might reveal history post 35 Harper's Ferry. I have seen some reference these Roman numerals & Dots as Confederate Armory, yet most likely any armory could used these marks as at this time parts were not interchangeable. Thank you Craig.

 

[rob63]

FWIW, Peter Schmidt's book U.S. Military Flintlock Muskets attributes the Roman numerals to muskets altered at the Allegheny Arsenal. He doesn't claim this as definitive and says that further study is needed. It is based upon observations of muskets, rifles, and pistols that have these markings compared to the records of what types of arms were altered at each arsenal. His work also contains a very long list of all of the Harper's Ferry employees as of January 1832. There isn't anybody listed that would match the initials CBC, but I have no idea what significance, if any, there is to that.

 

[originalrebelyell]

I like it you can tell by the looks of it, that is has been somewhere and well used.