Grant Grant's Transformation

[Dave Wilma]

I am reading Smith's Grant and am struck by the amazing evolution or transformation or emergence in early 1862 of an aggressive combat commander who interpreted orders liberally from the ex-captain working for his younger brother who had to borrow money for a uniform. I am particularly impressed at how he managed to overcome Henry Halleck's jealousy and still do an impressive job. Is it because he had nothing to lose, no career agenda, no reputation to be compromised? I will agree that his opposition to secession was sincere so that devotion was there.

Where did the Grant of early '62 come from and how did he emerge so quickly?

 

[unionblue]

I am reading Smith's Grant and am struck by the amazing evolution or transformation or emergence in early 1862 of an aggressive combat commander who interpreted orders liberally from the ex-captain working for his younger brother who had to borrow money for a uniform. I am particularly impressed at how he managed to overcome Henry Halleck's jealousy and still do an impressive job. Is it because he had nothing to lose, no career agenda, no reputation to be compromised? I will agree that his opposition to secession was sincere so that devotion was there.

Where did the Grant of early '62 come from and how did he emerge so quickly?

Dave Wilma,

Ever contemplate all those wartime commanders and leaders who are absolutely worthless in peacetime? It's as though it is only through the hell of war they seem to 'wake up' and find their true calling. Grant, Sherman, Patton are the first of such who come to mind.

I myself have seen raw recruits fresh from civilian life who could only pump gas or bag groceries, excel and advance in a military environment.

Beats me. I always ducked when live rounds were fired at me.

Unionblue

 

[Dave Wilma]

I myself have seen raw recruits fresh from civilian life who could only pump gas or bag groceries, excel and advance in a military environment.

I can understand the flowering of a war hero like Alvin York or Audie Murphy, but Grant's development/surfacing of talent came at a very high level to include the ability to inspired people and managed units, etc. He freed the family slave probably because he didn't care to be a slave holder, but probably because couldn't afford to feed the man. Biographer Smith (and others I'm sure) speculates that Grant's life among civilians educated him as to the strengths and weaknesses of a volunteer army. His early orders as a regimental commander "require" certain behaviors of subordinate leaders, but "request" the cooperation of the soldiers.

If one could only bottle that sort of knowledge and talent.

 

[diane]

Post war, William T Sherman attended a dinner at which were several former enemies and he couldn't resist teasing them about the loss. Harry Heth responded to Sherman's not so gentle ribbing by exclaiming, "See here, Sherman! If there are two men on this green earth who should get down on their knees and thank God for raising up the rebels, it is Grant and Sherman. Without them, Grant would be tanning bad leather in Galena and you would be teaching in a Louisiana swamp!" "That is so, old chap," replied Sherman. "That is so."

It really is amazing about Grant. Napoleon always said three components were necessary for military success: talent, intelligence and opportunity. Any one of those goes missing, you're tanning bad leather in Galena. Grant would, without the war, probably have gone tottering on as he had been, although he might have been able to start up a business or do something a little more profitable. I wouldn't see him getting much more than comfortable, and that because of his wife and kids. Forrest was a similar man - not too successful until he went into the slave business - lots of money to be had in that trade. He was able to buy and sell real estate, build up cotton plantations, and turn his uncle's inheritance of heavy debt into over a million dollars. Even so, without the war, he would have been just another Southern planter and nobody would have known he was a military genius.

 

[Dave Wilma]

Grant would be tanning bad leather in Galena

Grant couldn't stand the operational side of the business and preferred to be a clerk. Even then he had a tough time dealing with customers. Still, he was able to connect with subordinates and his former commandant of cadets, C.F. Smith was perfectly happy to serve under Grant. Other men were not as impressed by his charisma as his calm focus on the mission.

That is typical of the Lost Cause to denigrate the quality of the leather tanned and sold by Grant's brothers. They had a successful business with branch stores. Bad tanner and drunk—repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth.

But for the war we would not be having this discussion.

 

[diane]

Grant couldn't stand the operational side of the business and preferred to be a clerk. Even then he had a tough time dealing with customers. Still, he was able to connect with subordinates and his former commandant of cadets, C.F. Smith was perfectly happy to serve under Grant. Other men were not as impressed by his charisma as his calm focus on the mission.

That is typical of the Lost Cause to denigrate the quality of the leather tanned and sold by Grant's brothers. They had a successful business with branch stores. Bad tanner and drunk—repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth.

Yeah, I do wonder how much leather Heth bought from Oroville's store! It wasn't just Lost Causers, though - James Garfield said he couldn't figure out whether Grant was extremely intelligent or extremely stupid. Again, that's in the bad leather-lucky drunk category. It always puzzles me how just about nobody but Julia would credit Grant with what he showed he could do. Even unto this day!

 

[Dave Wilma]

James Garfield said he couldn't figure out whether Grant was extremely intelligent or extremely stupid.

Grant would not have gotten out of Galena if extremely stupid. Garfield was a good politician and his statement leaves him safe whatever the conclusion.

 

[Patrick H]

Post war, William T Sherman attended a dinner at which were several former enemies and he couldn't resist teasing them about the loss. Harry Heth responded to Sherman's not so gentle ribbing by exclaiming, "See here, Sherman! If there are two men on this green earth who should get down on their knees and thank God for raising up the rebels, it is Grant and Sherman. Without them, Grant would be tanning bad leather in Galena and you would be teaching in a Louisiana swamp!" "That is so, old chap," replied Sherman. "That is so."

I had not heard this one before. It's a great story!

 

[James N.]

...Where did the Grant of early '62 come from and how did he emerge so quickly?

Grant would not have gotten out of Galena if extremely stupid. ...

There was a lot of discussion about this when I posted my thread: http://civilwartalk.com/threads/ulysses-s-grants-galena-ill.90521/ A quick answer to your question: Elihu Washburne, whose Galena residence is seen below.

 

[Dave Wilma]

Elihu Washburne, whose Galena residence is seen below.

Great point. Washburn probably headed off a removal of Grant by Halleck and Buell before Shiloh, but Washburn did not help Grant lead the troops or inspire Grant to push the boundaries of his orders and authority. Lincoln was happy to have an Illinois man win battles, but he was happy that anyone won battles.

 

[James N.]

Great point. Washburn probably headed off a removal of Grant by Halleck and Buell before Shiloh, but Washburn did not help Grant lead the troops or inspire Grant to push the boundaries of his orders and authority. Lincoln was happy to have an Illinois man win battles, but he was happy that anyone won battles.

No, but he had his back, an important factor in the politically-charged atmosphere of the time where patronage could be all-important. Consider how long failures like Banks, Fremont, Ben Butler, et al survived, although in their cases they were themselves the sources of the political influence!

 

[Dave Wilma]

Consider how long failures like Banks, Fremont, Ben Butler, et al survived, although in their cases they were themselves the sources of the political influence!

In the ACW political influence was probably one prerequisite of a successful commander. I've heard it said by many retiring colonels today that to get a star an officer had to "get political." This may be sour grapes on the part of the colonel but if you have to have your star approved by the Senate not so far fetched.

 

[rbasin]

Still amused by Halleck's "jealousy" of Grant.

 

[Dave Wilma]

Still amused by Halleck's "jealousy" of Grant.

More amusing is Grant stood by the guy.

 

[rbasin]

More amusing is Grant stood by the guy.

Why wouldn't he? Halleck supported him

 

[diane]

Halleck and Grant is a good one! I think at first Halleck was thinking about Grant's episode of insobriety at Ft Humboldt and was afraid Lincoln was promoting a drunk. And maybe there was a bit of a desire to see how he'd do himself in the field. His one time out showed him he wasn't cut out for that! Some would say he was a backstabber and others would say he was genuinely looking out for the army, but at any rate he was talking about Grant's drinking. Lincoln said prove it - if you can't, shut up. Halleck shut up. He and Grant and Lincoln made a good team thereafter. Grant was like Lincoln in some ways. He could work with people he didn't like or who he knew were up to something. Like Dana - instead of freezing him out as the spy he was, Grant just took him in. He didn't have anything to hide anyway!

 

[civilken]

It may not sound intellectual or Deep but the truth be said in grants life L UCK had a lot to do with him becoming a general and a president.

 

[Dave Wilma]

It may not sound intellectual or Deep but the truth be said in grants life L UCK had a lot to do with him becoming a general and a president.

Luck in the form of Illinois Congressman Elihu Washburn. But Washburn would not have sponsored Grant if Grant had not presented himself well. Grant made his own luck there.

 

[Aussie Billy Sherman]

Good story and thread, this one

 

[civilken]

Luck in the form of Illinois Congressman Elihu Washburn. But Washburn would not have sponsored Grant if Grant had not presented himself well. Grant made his own luck there.

I will never argue about grants Circumstances either way he was a great general and contrary to popular belief a good president most of the incidents in his administration had nothing to do with him..