Uniforms Gettysburg July 1 1863

[2ndDEboy]

Just got this beautiful cartridge box picked up off the First day of Gettysburg. This box would have crossed willoughby run into Reynolds woods and up over McPherson ridge onto Luther seminary if the fella who carried it made it that far before being killed!!!!

 

[13 IL Cav & 64 GA Inf]

Just got this beautiful cartridge box picked up off the First day of Gettysburg. This box would have crossed willoughby run into Reynolds woods and up over McPherson ridge onto Luther seminary if the fella who carried it made it that far before being killed!!!!

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I'm no expert on collectibles, but that is great!

 

[CyleKostello]

Neat battlefield pickup.
Is there any additional provenance connecting this box to the M. Lafayette Walls in the 11th NC? Have to imagine there were multiple MLW's on the field on July 1st.

 

[iron bender]

Looks like a 69 caliber box too.

 

[2ndDEboy]

Neat battlefield pickup.
Is there any additional provenance connecting this box to the M. Lafayette Walls in the 11th NC? Have to imagine there were multiple MLW's on the field on July 1st.

He's the only one at Gettysburg one and only with those initials. Also this was obtain from the GAR post in York springs PA a lot of the post around PA were known to house and display early battlefield relics brought in by local veterans who served in PA regiments at Gettysburg

 

[2ndDEboy]

Looks like a 69 caliber box too.

 

[2ndDEboy]

More pictures there are 9 Roman numeral marks on the straps
has a round finial as well

 

[Package4]

More pictures there are 9 Roman numeral marks on the straps
has a round finial as well

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Very doubtful this is identified to that particular soldier, this is a US made and issued box. The box shows evidence of a plate which also precludes use by a Southern soldier. Union soldiers typically marked their boxes inside or other inconspicuous areas, defacing Federal property was not allowed and the offender would be docked for the cost of having it replaced. CS did not follow these protocols and are found marked all over the pieces.

Box could have been captured, which is likely, as the carved initials show evidence as having been scratched through. Winchester may be a likely place the box was repurposed.

Could be from a Federal soldier wounded or kia as well, look for the initials MW in the casualty lists for Federal regiments on first day field.

 

[2ndDEboy]

Very doubtful this is identified to that particular soldier, this is a US made and issued box. The box shows evidence of a plate which also precludes use by a Southern soldier. Union soldiers typically marked their boxes inside or other inconspicuous areas, defacing Federal property was not allowed and the offender would be docked for the cost of having it replaced. CS did not follow these protocols and are found marked all over the pieces.

Box could have been captured, which is likely, as the carved initials show evidence as having been scratched through. Winchester may be a likely place the box was repurposed.

Could be from a Federal soldier wounded or kia as well, look for the initials MW in the casualty lists for Federal regiments on first day field.

You do know confederates often times and alot of times captured Union arms and accoutrements i searched and others have searched this is the most likely soldier we found. There were under 20 battalions with .69 issued ammo at Gettysburg in the union army I think perhaps you could shed some research

 

[CyleKostello]

You do know confederates often times and alot of times captured Union arms and accoutrements i searched and others have searched this is the most likely soldier we found. There were under 20 battalions with .69 issued ammo at Gettysburg in the union army I think perhaps you could shed some research

If you're happy with it then God bless. But one man's opinion there are some unsupported conclusions with regard to your identification. Out of curiosity, I put the initials M. L. W. into HDS' system and it spat out hundreds of candidates. For example: Martin L. Whitten of the 16th Maine, he was with the 1st Corps on day 1 and his regiment was hotly engaged. Who's to say this isn't his box? Perhaps he lost it in the scrum as his regiment was overwhelmed.

All that to say, it's a nice box with some great character but without supporting provenance (I.e a family connection or something else) I think it's gonna be hard to identify it conclusively.

 

[2ndDEboy]

If you're happy with it then God bless. But one man's opinion there are some unsupported conclusions with regard to your identification. Out of curiosity, I put the initials M. L. W. into HDS' system and it spat out hundreds of candidates. For example: Martin L. Whitten of the 16th Maine, he was with the 1st Corps on day 1 and his regiment was hotly engaged. Who's to say this isn't his box? Perhaps he lost it in the scrum as his regiment was overwhelmed.

All that to say, it's a nice box with some great character but without supporting provenance (I.e a family connection or something else) I think it's gonna be hard to identify it conclusively.

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It cannot be the 16th Maine as they had .577 enfield muskets at Gettysburg

 

[2ndDEboy]

Here is a list of units that had .69 muskets and there for would have had a .69
Caliber cartridge box AP Hills corp alone had 900 soldiers with .69 round ball muskets

 

[Package4]

You do know confederates often times and alot of times captured Union arms and accoutrements i searched and others have searched this is the most likely soldier we found. There were under 20 battalions with .69 issued ammo at Gettysburg in the union army I think perhaps you could shed some research

Slow down, most true collectors would not go with this attribution, I have already stated that this box was likely captured, it could have been at 2nd Manassas or Winchester and the original owner's initials are inside the flap. I have well over 100 federal cartridge boxes, the majority have initials or names on the interior, while my CS boxes and accouterments all have names or initials on the exterior. Small sample size, but a good rule of thumb, plus it appears as if the initials were crossed out.

There were times a soldier would also hang onto an accouterment when a reissue occurred, he may have thought he could cram more rounds into the box or why change anything if my luck has held out this long. The box is obviously Federal and the cartridge box plate was on it for a long time as evidenced by the impression, which favors Federal ownership. The Federal soldier may have enlisted under his first and last name (no middle initial) but decided to add the middle initial since there were others in his company with the same initials

As has been stated earlier, if you are happy, that is what counts, but the attribution is extremely loose and not one that would be accepted in serious circles.

Surely you meant regiments and not battalions:

"There were under 20 battalions with .69 issued ammo at Gettysburg in the union army I think perhaps you could shed some research"

The important thing to remember is that no one knows when those initials were carved into that box 1861-1863.

 

[2ndDEboy]

Slow down, most true collectors would not go with this attribution, I have already stated that this box was likely captured, it could have been at 2nd Manassas or Winchester and the original owner's initials are inside the flap. I have well over 100 federal cartridge boxes, the majority have initials or names on the interior, while my CS boxes and accouterments all have names or initials on the exterior. Small sample size, but a good rule of thumb, plus it appears as if the initials were crossed out.

There were times a soldier would also hang onto an accouterment when a reissue occurred, he may have thought he could cram more rounds into the box or why change anything if my luck has held out this long. The box is obviously Federal and the cartridge box plate was on it for a long time as evidenced by the impression, which favors Federal ownership. The Federal soldier may have enlisted under his first and last name (no middle initial) but decided to add the middle initial since there were others in his company with the same initials

As has been stated earlier, if you are happy, that is what counts, but the attribution is extremely loose and not one that would be accepted in serious circles.

Surely you meant regiments and not battalions:

"There were under 20 battalions with .69 issued ammo at Gettysburg in the union army I think perhaps you could shed some research"

The important thing to remember is that no one knows when those initials were carved into that box 1861-1863.

Thank you for the input. Also yes a "regiment" as most folks call them in fact are properly called battalions. During the war the term regiment was not used in military vocabulary by officers. Privates may have loosely used the term regiment but for military orders for drill and battle battalion was the correct term

 

[CyleKostello]

A regiment In the civil war was called a battalion

Not exactly, the term battalion was used pretty loosely during the CW but was generally used to refer to multiple companies within a regiment, rather than a regiment itself.

Battalion size and hierarchy? | Questions? Ask Here! No Stone Left Unturned!

Towards the end of Gettysburg, at Pickett’s Charge, Armistead orders his men to form their battalions. I’ve never been able to get a good answer to this question. How big were battalions and where did they fit into the hierarchy of organization? i.e. where do they fit in when going from company...

civilwartalk.com

 

[2ndDEboy]

Not exactly, the term battalion was used pretty loosely during the CW but was generally used to refer to multiple companies within a regiment, rather than a regiment itself.

Battalion size and hierarchy? | Questions? Ask Here! No Stone Left Unturned!

Towards the end of Gettysburg, at Pickett’s Charge, Armistead orders his men to form their battalions. I’ve never been able to get a good answer to this question. How big were battalions and where did they fit into the hierarchy of organization? i.e. where do they fit in when going from company...

civilwartalk.com

Yea that's what I said if you find my other comment

 

[Package4]

Thank you for the input. Also yes a "regiment" as most folks call them in fact are properly called battalions. During the war the term regiment was not used in military vocabulary by officers. Privates may have loosely used the term regiment but for military orders for drill and battle battalion was the correct term

You are correct in terms of drill, but we are not discussing that here, but discussing regiments, which officers, rank and file all took pride in belonging to a particular regiment and not battalion. Drums and flags are evidence of this. Historical purpose dictates the use of regiment and are very rarely or ever referred to in terms of battalion unless the unit was smaller than the 10-company compliment such as the 1st or 2nd MD CS.

Article First in Hardee's

"Formation of a Regiment in order of battle, or in line."

 

[Package4]

Buy the Box not the Story....... | Relic Hunting & Collecting

Some years ago I purchased a cartridge box from a well known internet dealer, the box was purported to have been picked up after the battle of Gettysburg, well not so much...…..luckily, I didn't pay too much, of a premium, for the Gettysburg story. As time allows I am going to post a short...

civilwartalk.com

I posted the above some years ago and it still holds today, from a collectors view, I would purchase the box just on the historical value of where it was found and the chain of custody/provenance. The initials are a plus, but trying to pigeon hole them just dilutes the historical significance of the piece. The attribution does not add value and a collector should never pay more for such an attribution, for all we know the box was picked up after Chancellorsville, very likely these are the original owner's initials.

 

[2ndDEboy]

Buy the Box not the Story....... | Relic Hunting & Collecting

Some years ago I purchased a cartridge box from a well known internet dealer, the box was purported to have been picked up after the battle of Gettysburg, well not so much...…..luckily, I didn't pay too much, of a premium, for the Gettysburg story. As time allows I am going to post a short...

civilwartalk.com

I posted the above some years ago and it still holds today, from a collectors view, I would purchase the box just on the historical value of where it was found and the chain of custody/provenance. The initials are a plus, but trying to pigeon hole them just dilutes the historical significance of the piece. The attribution does not add value and a collector should never pay more for such an attribution, for all we know the box was picked up after Chancellorsville, very likely these are the original owner's initials.

Idk if I said in the original posting this cartridge box came out of the York Springs GAR post and was picked up by a veteran of the battle and a local I believe by the name of David Starry

 

[Package4]

Idk if I said in the original posting this cartridge box came out of the York Springs GAR post and was picked up by a veteran of the battle and a local I believe by the name of David Starry

Yes, I got that and you have a sweet piece with what appears to be a great provenance!