Frock coat identification

[Billw12280]

Not sure what this is. I've never seen buttons grouped like this outside of a double breasted frock coat. Can anybody help identify this coat?

 

[major bill]

Thank you for posting this. I am not sure what to think. Is this an officer uniform?

 

[Billw12280]

Thank you for posting this. I am not sure what to think. Is this an officer uniform?

I'm not really sure. The person selling it says it is Indian War or Civil War and they claimed the 3 groups of 3 buttons was for the General rank. If I'm not mistaken Generals wore double breasted frock coats that had 18 buttons in groups of 3. The buttons are evenly spaced on all of the 9 button frock coats I have ever seen. This is the seller's description:

Early Indian War frock coat. Has nine button front usually meaning genaral officer, very rare. Straps missing with shadow were they were. This could be CW but the buttons I believe are later. Maybe the were replaced
.81/2 inch sleeve and great quilted typical CW lining. Buttons are spaced 3/3/3 for General? Plain buff cotton sleeve lining. No tail pockets, unhemmed CW type skirt. This is original and authentic 19th century. Great for collection or costume small size.

 

[UCVRelics]

This is an Indian War period lower rank officers coat. The buttons have been replaced. The pattern doesn't fit the CW period. Its not all that rare.

 

[Billw12280]

This is an Indian War period lower rank officers coat. The buttons have been replaced. The pattern doesn't fit the CW period. Its not all that rare.

Ok I just found this masonic frock (pictured below) on ebay and I thought that it looked a lot like the frock in question so I was leaning toward it being a masonic coat that somebody put Eagle buttons on to pass as a military coat. Just to be sure you are saying this is an NCO Indian War Frock, correct?

 

[WJC]

Not sure what this is. I've never seen buttons grouped like this outside of a double breasted frock coat. Can anybody help identify this coat? View attachment 159069 View attachment 159070 View attachment 159071 View attachment 159072 View attachment 159073 View attachment 159074 View attachment 159075 View attachment 159076 View attachment 159077

Thanks for posting. Nice coat in great shape for its age. Sorry I can't help identify it.

 

[WJC]

Ok I just found this masonic frock (pictured below) on ebay and I thought that it looked a lot like the frock in question so I was leaning toward it being a masonic coat that somebody put Eagle buttons on to pass as a military coat. Just to be sure you are saying this is an NCO Indian War Frock, correct?
View attachment 159127

Thanks for posting.
I never knew there was such a thing as a "masonic frock"! The Apron is the only Masonic 'clothing' I was aware of.

 

[Billw12280]

Thanks for posting.
I never knew there was such a thing as a "masonic frock"! The Apron is the only Masonic 'clothing' I was aware of.

Yeah, I didn't know a whole lot about the masonic clothing either but if you Google it you will get a lot of hits. Some of the uniforms are pretty elaborate and from what I understand they even have ranks for their officers.

 

[E_just_E]

That "masonic frock" on eBay looks like similar to a Knights Templar frock from the 1920s, given the buttons.

The top frock coat looks similar, with of course the buttons being replaced with some sort of military (looking?) buttons, but not identical to the one on sale at eBay. For one the second one has epaulets, while the top does not, the back cut seems different and so does the collar.

If I were to guess I'd probably say that it is 20th century fraternal organization or even civilian frock that has been modified either by someone who wanted to pass it for something else, or by a re-enactor

Cannot get a good ID unless you look and feel the material, stitching, lining, look for labels, etc. Nobody can really authenticate a coat in the internet

(BTW, That grouping in double breasted frocks during the ACW denoted Major General rank. Of course, this has nothing to do with it.)

 

[Billw12280]

That "masonic frock" on eBay looks like similar to a Knights Templar frock from the 1920s, given the buttons.

The top frock coat looks similar, with of course the buttons being replaced with some sort of military (looking?) buttons, but not identical to the one on sale at eBay. For one the second one has epaulets, while the top does not, the back cut seems different and so does the collar.

If I were to guess I'd probably say that it is 20th century fraternal organization or even civilian frock that has been modified either by someone who wanted to pass it for something else, or by a re-enactor

Cannot get a good ID unless you look and feel the material, stitching, lining, look for labels, etc. Nobody can really authenticate a coat in the internet

(BTW, That grouping in double breasted frocks during the ACW denoted Major General rank. Of course, this has nothing to do with it.)

Please forgive my ignorance here but I thought Knights Templars and Freemasons were the same. Either way you are saying this is a fraternal or civilian frock?

 

[E_just_E]

Please forgive my ignorance here but I thought Knights Templars and Freemasons were the same. Either way you are saying this is a fraternal or civilian frock?

a. Not quite. Think of Knights Templar at a level similar to the Shriners. One has to be a Freemason to belong in either of those 2 groups, but not all Freemasons are Shriners or Knights Templar. There is a whole bunch of smaller groups derived from the Freemasons, but they are more exclusive.

b. Yes. Fraternal, or civiliar (including costume, as for theater or re-enacting.)

 

[mofederal]

Thank you for posting this. It is Indian Wars era I believe, but it could be masonic. I guess the proof would be in the examination. To see the actual construction of the thing.

 

[UCVRelics]

You also have to remember the GAR wore coats like this. If you could post a clear photo of the sleeve lining that would be helpful in determining origin.

 

[E_just_E]

You also have to remember the GAR wore coats like this. If you could post a clear photo of the sleeve lining that would be helpful in determining origin.

Not close. GAR (which, btw, is a fraternal organization) :

 

[Billw12280]

I just got an email from Dave Taylor stating this frock is "Not likely military".

 

[Billw12280]

You also have to remember the GAR wore coats like this. If you could post a clear photo of the sleeve lining that would be helpful in determining origin.

Unfortunately I don't actually have the coat, and in light of the information I received I will not be purchasing it.