Fort Donelson

[bankerpapaw]

Could Southern troops has escaped from Fort Donelson instead of having to surrender? It seems as if General Buckner wasn't even willing to try.

 

[diane]

Yes. Forrest offered to do what he had successfully done before, open a hole in Grant's line and keep it open with his shotguns until the army got away. None of them thought he could do it. Forrest hadn't yet made his reputation - he was still a colonel and they didn't know he very rarely said he could do something extraordinary unless he was darned sure he could. They dismissed the idea. He also told them they were not surrounded - his scouts saw no Federals and a local had shown him and his brother Jeffrey a ford. That option meant everybody with a horse and whoever they could double up with - the water was saddle skirt deep and far too cold for infantry but by horse a good many could have been gotten out.

 

[gary]

Poor leadership resulted in the loss of a Confederate army. They could have escaped.

 

[Andy Cardinal]

Is Bunker to blame, or more Floyd & Pillow?

 

[diane]

Poor leadership resulted in the loss of a Confederate army. They could have escaped.

I'm pretty sure A S Johnston's jaw hit the floor when he learned he'd lost 17,000 men right off the bat without a single shot fired! It's a good bet he either didn't have better choices available or didn't realize how bad these generals were. Buckner wasn't bad, actually, but he sure got sprayed by the skunks. Grant and Foote had worked together very well - with the fall of Ft Henry, Grant had successfully split Johnston's forces. He was between Hardee and Beauregard. Beauregard suggested reinforcing Ft Donelson with 12,000 of his men - he knew how important Ft Donelson was - and so there they were. Johnston had actually wanted Beauregard to command at Ft Donelson but he was sick. Beauregard sick would have been vastly better than Floyd, Pillow and Buckner well!

 

[shermans_march]

Could Southern troops has escaped from Fort Donelson instead of having to surrender? It seems as if General Buckner wasn't even willing to try.

Could Buckner have tried to escape with the bulk of the Confederate force in Donelson? He could have if he wanted to prolong it's surrender or risk many more casualties. What we have to understand is that the Confederates were already very weary from fighting during the breakout attempt, lack of sleep, and lack of food due to the siege. If they had managed to escape, the march to meet up with Johnston would have been too much for the army and they wouldn't have gotten far. Buckner had few options when he was given command of the fort the night Floyd and Pillow fled. He knew it was over and decided on what was best for his men.

I look at your quote, "General Buckner wasn't even willing to try." Buckner did try. That happened on the 15th and would have likely succeeded had Floyd not got cold feet and order the men back into the trenches.

 

[shermans_march]

I'm pretty sure A S Johnston's jaw hit the floor when he learned he'd lost 17,000 men right off the bat without a single shot fired!

There were many shots fired at fort Donelson.

 

[diane]

There were many shots fired at fort Donelson.

Oh, yes, not like there was no fighting whatsoever - just overstatement for emphasis that it didn't take too much to make Floyd and Pillow start waving a white sheet in the air. Forrest saw the gunboats coming down the river and told his chaplain to start praying because that's all that would save the fort, but he was sure willing to pass the ammunition while the preacher was doing it. There was a good chance to exit with most of the troops but Forrest was only a voice crying in the wilderness - nobody heard him! That's when he decided to go out or 'bust hell wide open'.

 

[shermans_march]

Oh, yes, not like there was no fighting whatsoever - just overstatement for emphasis that it didn't take too much to make Floyd and Pillow start waving a white sheet in the air. Forrest saw the gunboats coming down the river and told his chaplain to start praying because that's all that would save the fort, but he was sure willing to pass the ammunition while the preacher was doing it. There was a good chance to exit with most of the troops but Forrest was only a voice crying in the wilderness - nobody heard him! That's when he decided to go out or 'bust hell wide open'.

Yeah, Forrest wanted to get out before the surrender went down. He didn't want to be any part of it.

 

[diane]

I've always kind of felt sorry for Buckner. Floyd in particular wanted to get gone and how, Pillow wasn't much of a soldier in the first place and they just tagged Buckner as "It". The whole thing made Forrest mad - to his mind, fighting was worth a good try. "I didn't come here to surrender." And he didn't. He escaped with enough men to be sent to Nashville to stop civilian looting there. The fall of Ft Donelson caused a troop shifting of unbelievable proportions - even had an effect on the outcome of the Andrews Raid!

Again, which was the continuing story of his life, Grant was woefully misunderstood and underestimated.

 

[jackt62]

The primary fault was with General Pillow, not Buckner. In Grant's temporary absence from the field, Confederate troops had successfully attacked General McClernand's division and were on their way to establishing a break-out pathway. But Pillow got cold feet and ordered the troops back to the fort, while in the meantime, Grant arrived on the field and oversaw a federal counterattack.

 

[67th Tigers]

Grant was lucky that he was browbeaten by McClernand. Grant initial orders were to retreat his army to higher ground away from the fort and essentially "let them out". McClernand refused the order, pointing out that if Grant would allow an offensive on the left they'd overwhelm the rebels there. Grant assented, and a whole Federal division fell on one regiment manning the lines and overwhelmed them.

 

[DanSBHawk]

Grant was lucky that he was browbeaten by McClernand. Grant initial orders were to retreat his army to higher ground away from the fort and essentially "let them out". McClernand refused the order, pointing out that if Grant would allow an offensive on the left they'd overwhelm the rebels there. Grant assented, and a whole Federal division fell on one regiment manning the lines and overwhelmed them.

According to Lew Wallace's account of the meeting, Grant wanted to settle into a regular siege after the gunboats had failed. But when he learned that McClernand had let the confederate escape route become open, he immediately told Wallace and McClernand that the road must be recovered. He informed them that he would have CF Smith attack on the left simultaneously. Wallace had to command the counterattack on the right, because McClernand seemed incapable. McClernand was anything but aggressive at that point. He was whipped.

 

[DanSBHawk]

As others have noted, it was mostly Pillows fault that an escape attempt was not made, and Floyds fault for giving into Pillow. Buckner had a no-win situation dumped on him.

 

[67th Tigers]

Grant twice ordered a retreat to the heights to the west and throwing up breastworks in Lew Wallace's account.

Firstly, when he came on the field for a short time during the battle around 1400 hrs he directed McClernand and Wallace to retreat before even knowing the situation:

" Just then General Grant rode up to where General McClemand and I were in conversation. He was almost unattended. In his hand there were some papers, which looked like telegrams. Wholly unexcited, he saluted and received the salutations of his subordinates. Proceeding at once to business, he directed them to retire their commands to the heights out of cannon range, and throw up works. Reinforcements were en route, he said, and it was advisable to await their coming. He was then informed of the mishap to the First Division, and that the road to Charlotte was open to the enemy.
In every great man's career there is a crisis exactly similar to that which now overtook General Grant, and it cannot be better described than as a crucial test of his nature. A mediocre person would have accepted the news as an,argument for persistence in his resolution to enter upon a siege. Had General Grant done so, it is very probable his history would have been then and there concluded. His admirers and detractors are alike invited to study him at this precise juncture. It cannot be doubted that he saw with painful distinctness the effect of the disaster to his right wing. His face flushed slightly. With a sudden grip he crushed the papers in his hand. But in an instant these signs of disappointment or hesitation-as the reader pleases-cleared away. In his ordinary quiet voice he said, addressing himself to both officers, "Gentlemen, the position on the right must be retaken." With that he turned and galloped off."

Whether Grant actually said this is questionable, as afterwards, at around 1500 hrs he sent Col. Webster to reiterate his retreat order (his HQ was a half-hour ride from the field):

"It was then about half-past 3 o'clock in the afternoon. I was reconnoitering the works of the enemy preliminary to charging them, when Colonel Webster, of General Grant's staff, came to me and repeated the order to fall back out of cannon range and throw up breastworks. "The general does not know that we have the hill," I said. Webster replied: "I give you the order as he gave it to me." "Very well," said I, "give him my compliments, and say that I have received the order." Webster smiled and rode away. The ground was not vacated, though the assault was deferred."

If Grant gave any order to recover the road is questionable. It is known he twice ordered a retreat to open the road, including after Wallace and McClernand had regained it.

 

[DanSBHawk]

Grant twice ordered a retreat to the heights to the west and throwing up breastworks in Lew Wallace's account.

Firstly, when he came on the field for a short time during the battle around 1400 hrs he directed McClernand and Wallace to retreat before even knowing the situation:

" Just then General Grant rode up to where General McClemand and I were in conversation. He was almost unattended. In his hand there were some papers, which looked like telegrams. Wholly unexcited, he saluted and received the salutations of his subordinates. Proceeding at once to business, he directed them to retire their commands to the heights out of cannon range, and throw up works. Reinforcements were en route, he said, and it was advisable to await their coming. He was then informed of the mishap to the First Division, and that the road to Charlotte was open to the enemy.
In every great man's career there is a crisis exactly similar to that which now overtook General Grant, and it cannot be better described than as a crucial test of his nature. A mediocre person would have accepted the news as an,argument for persistence in his resolution to enter upon a siege. Had General Grant done so, it is very probable his history would have been then and there concluded. His admirers and detractors are alike invited to study him at this precise juncture. It cannot be doubted that he saw with painful distinctness the effect of the disaster to his right wing. His face flushed slightly. With a sudden grip he crushed the papers in his hand. But in an instant these signs of disappointment or hesitation-as the reader pleases-cleared away. In his ordinary quiet voice he said, addressing himself to both officers, "Gentlemen, the position on the right must be retaken." With that he turned and galloped off."

Whether Grant actually said this is questionable, as afterwards, at around 1500 hrs he sent Col. Webster to reiterate his retreat order (his HQ was a half-hour ride from the field):

"It was then about half-past 3 o'clock in the afternoon. I was reconnoitering the works of the enemy preliminary to charging them, when Colonel Webster, of General Grant's staff, came to me and repeated the order to fall back out of cannon range and throw up breastworks. "The general does not know that we have the hill," I said. Webster replied: "I give you the order as he gave it to me." "Very well," said I, "give him my compliments, and say that I have received the order." Webster smiled and rode away. The ground was not vacated, though the assault was deferred."

If Grant gave any order to recover the road is questionable. It is known he twice ordered a retreat to open the road, including after Wallace and McClernand had regained it.

Grant did not order a retreat to "open the road." The first time Grant ordered Wallace to "retire" out of cannon range was after the gunboats had failed and reinforcements were on the way. Even this order presumes McClernand can still cover the confederate escape road.

The second order to entrench just out of range of the guns of the fort, does not in any way direct Wallace to leave the escape road open. He earlier ordered Wallace and McClernand to retake the road. It makes no sense for Grant to then order them to leave the road open.

Lew Wallace's autobiography is free online. His view towards Grant at Fort Donelson is very positive. His evaluation of McClernand is negative.
https://books.google.com/books?id=1...XAhUR8mMKHSUKBpcQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[Canadian]

Yeah, Forrest wanted to get out before the surrender went down. He didn't want to be any part of it.

I've always kind of felt sorry for Buckner. Floyd in particular wanted to get gone and how, Pillow wasn't much of a soldier in the first place and they just tagged Buckner as "It". The whole thing made Forrest mad - to his mind, fighting was worth a good try. "I didn't come here to surrender." And he didn't. He escaped with enough men to be sent to Nashville to stop civilian looting there. The fall of Ft Donelson caused a troop shifting of unbelievable proportions - even had an effect on the outcome of the Andrews Raid!

Again, which was the continuing story of his life, Grant was woefully misunderstood and underestimated.

Yes, I definitely think Buckner got the short end of the stick, Pillow deciding he was too important to be captured and Forrest doing what he would become known for, breaking the rules. I think Grant was expecting to be dealing with Pillow.

 

[Canadian]

Grant twice ordered a retreat to the heights to the west and throwing up breastworks in Lew Wallace's account.

Firstly, when he came on the field for a short time during the battle around 1400 hrs he directed McClernand and Wallace to retreat before even knowing the situation:

" Just then General Grant rode up to where General McClemand and I were in conversation. He was almost unattended. In his hand there were some papers, which looked like telegrams. Wholly unexcited, he saluted and received the salutations of his subordinates. Proceeding at once to business, he directed them to retire their commands to the heights out of cannon range, and throw up works. Reinforcements were en route, he said, and it was advisable to await their coming. He was then informed of the mishap to the First Division, and that the road to Charlotte was open to the enemy.
In every great man's career there is a crisis exactly similar to that which now overtook General Grant, and it cannot be better described than as a crucial test of his nature. A mediocre person would have accepted the news as an,argument for persistence in his resolution to enter upon a siege. Had General Grant done so, it is very probable his history would have been then and there concluded. His admirers and detractors are alike invited to study him at this precise juncture. It cannot be doubted that he saw with painful distinctness the effect of the disaster to his right wing. His face flushed slightly. With a sudden grip he crushed the papers in his hand. But in an instant these signs of disappointment or hesitation-as the reader pleases-cleared away. In his ordinary quiet voice he said, addressing himself to both officers, "Gentlemen, the position on the right must be retaken." With that he turned and galloped off."

Whether Grant actually said this is questionable, as afterwards, at around 1500 hrs he sent Col. Webster to reiterate his retreat order (his HQ was a half-hour ride from the field):

"It was then about half-past 3 o'clock in the afternoon. I was reconnoitering the works of the enemy preliminary to charging them, when Colonel Webster, of General Grant's staff, came to me and repeated the order to fall back out of cannon range and throw up breastworks. "The general does not know that we have the hill," I said. Webster replied: "I give you the order as he gave it to me." "Very well," said I, "give him my compliments, and say that I have received the order." Webster smiled and rode away. The ground was not vacated, though the assault was deferred."

If Grant gave any order to recover the road is questionable. It is known he twice ordered a retreat to open the road, including after Wallace and McClernand had regained it.

What an incredibly good writer Wallace was!

Apparently he spent the rest of his life trying to live down getting scapegoated for Shiloh. Ben Hur has been interpreted as his answer to Grant.

 

[shermans_march]

Yes, I definitely think Buckner got the short end of the stick, Pillow deciding he was too important to be captured and Forrest doing what he would become known for, breaking the rules. I think Grant was expecting to be dealing with Pillow.

Pillow also thought he would be tried for treason. Floyd had much more legitimate concern with a treason charge. There is rumor that he send supplies from federal arsenals to the South before the war started. Floyd probably would have been executed.

 

[Canadian]

Pillow also thought he would be tried for treason. Floyd had much more legitimate concern with a treason charge. There is rumor that he send supplies from federal arsenals to the South before the war started. Floyd probably would have been executed.

That makes sense. Thanks.