Forrest Forrest and Human shield??

[Bowen]

Yes I am only guessing as to the exact cause of his fatal illness it probably was a combination of many things. I do recall reading that after Tupelo, Forrest was afflicted with Boils and I just think the four years of hard living as a commander/soldier (don't forget he fought at times like a private and engaged in enough combat to kill 30 enemies and have 29 horses shot out from him) and his various wounds (his last was at Selma when he killed his final Union soldier who had been hacking at his arm with a saber) contributed to a greatly weakened physical constitution. I read also that at the end of his life he barely weighed 100 lbs and suffered from dysentery which was a common affliction of Civil War soldiers (my nic/ name sake Confederate Maj. General John S. Bowen died of dysentery 10 days after the surrender of Vicksburg) due to bad water/hygiene.

 

[Bowen]

Typhoid = bad water; malaria = mosquitoes. Both abundant on President's Island. Also yellow fever, of course.

I wasn't aware that adult-onset diabetes had such a strong genetic component. I looked it up. Thanks for educating me, Bowen!

Incidentally, there was a big hoopla a couple of years ago when a large alligator was discovered in McKeller lake, sunning itself on President's Island. I wonder if they had occasional alligators back in the day.

Thanks. I believe gators are in Louisiana and Florida. Not sure about Mississippi or Tennessee.

 

[Bowen]

Forrest died in Memphis at his brothers home. Jefferson Davis was at his bedside.

 

[Allie]

Thanks. I believe gators are in Louisiana and Florida. Not sure about Mississippi or Tennessee.

We had several near President's Island in 2010 - you can look it up! People were having conniptions, as that area is used for recreational boating, and as an industrial complex, today.

 

[diane]

I think around the time of Forrest's death there had been a couple of yellow fever epidemics in Memphis? Not too sure of the dates. I know William H Forrest, Bill, died of a stomach disorder that might have been brought on by bad water. He had an injury to his stomach some time before when he was jumped on the Natchez Trace coming back from a business trip to Nashville. I know Forrest had been, before his final illness, trying to fix sanitation problems at President's Island. He was growing corn there. He lived there until his cabin burned down but I'm not sure when he went to live with his brother. He wasn't at the cabin when it caught fire at any rate.

Forrest had a lot of visitors the day he died, Jefferson Davis being one of them. He stayed on to be a pall bearer, too. He told a companion in the buggy on the way to the cemetery that he wished he had realized sooner what he had in Forrest! Forrest wasn't aware Davis was there, though, and that was kind of sad because Davis didn't get to tell him he was appreciated after all. Forrest's last words were, "Call my wife."

 

[Bowen]

Speasl

I think around the time of Forrest's death there had been a couple of yellow fever epidemics in Memphis? Not too sure of the dates. I know William H Forrest, Bill, died of a stomach disorder that might have been brought on by bad water. He had an injury to his stomach some time before when he was jumped on the Natchez Trace coming back from a business trip to Nashville. I know Forrest had been, before his final illness, trying to fix sanitation problems at President's Island. He was growing corn there. He lived there until his cabin burned down but I'm not sure when he went to live with his brother. He wasn't at the cabin when it caught fire at any rate.

Forrest had a lot of visitors the day he died, Jefferson Davis being one of them. He stayed on to be a pall bearer, too. He told a companion in the buggy on the way to the cemetery that he wished he had realized sooner what he had in Forrest! Forrest wasn't aware Davis was there, though, and that was kind of sad because Davis didn't get to tell him he was appreciated after all. Forrest's last words were, "Call my wife."

Actually I think the Confederacy used Forrest correctly throughout the war. In higher command I am not sure how well he would or would not have done. Speaking of the Natchez Trace, in 2011 after I visited Brices Cross Roads and Tupelo (after visiting Corinth and the day before Shiloh) we were not sure how to get on the road to Greenwood Mississippi. We got on the Natchez Trace in Tupelo for a 1 hour 15 minute ride which was kind of spooky because there are few signs and we were not sure if we were even going in the right direction. Fortunately we came upon I think it was U.S. 382 that took us into Greenwood. I was fearing we would not have a breakdown or run out of gas on the Natchez Trace. Forrest's great-grandson Nathan Bedford Forrest III was an Air Force Brigadier General shot down and killed over Germany in 1943.

 

[diane]

I think Forrest was held back a good deal but he had also put himself in a position where he couldn't be used more effectively. He didn't get on with Bragg and some others who didn't think much of him, and found it was better if he had a more or less independent command. Davis, however, simply regarded him as a talented raider. Forrest submitted a good plan to clean out the lawless elements along a sizable stretch of the Mississippi and return a large number of men to service, and even more daringly possibly retrieve a goodly patch of lost territory. Davis glanced at it and stuffed it into a drawer - later, after all was over, he looked at the proposal and was astounded at how good it was!

Bill was bushwhacked on the Natchez Trace by a former scout of his whom he had helped put in prison for five years for killing another scout. After the man got out he got three or four cousins and a couple Matlocks, who feuded with the Forrests off and on, and made a revenge attack on Bill. Bill was even more ferocious in a fight than was his older brother! He did in some of the gang and damaged the rest, but was injured himself. Some years later with a stomach problem, it apparently finished his business on this earth.

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

Speaking of the Natchez Trace, in 2011 after I visited Brices Cross Roads and Tupelo (after visiting Corinth and the day before Shiloh) we were not sure how to get on the road to Greenwood Mississippi. We got on the Natchez Trace in Tupelo for a 1 hour 15 minute ride which was kind of spooky because there are few signs and we were not sure if we were even going in the right direction. Fortunately we came upon I think it was U.S. 382 that took us into Greenwood. I was fearing we would not have a breakdown or run out of gas on the Natchez Trace.

That's the beauty of the Natchez Trace.
The National Park Service doesn't permit any commercial construction.

Next time you're in the neighborhood, I recommend driving all the way down to Natchez. There is much history along the Trace & it's well patrolled by Federal rangers.

And by the way . . . we have so many gators down here that there's a hunting season for them.

 

[Allie]

I used to have a horse named Natchez Trace. It's funny to me to imagine being afraid there - back in the days before cell phones, that part of the country was the sort of place you get help within minutes when you break down. Good ol' boys are good for that at least.

Diane, there were yearly outbreaks of yellow fever but the big year was 1878. Memphis became a taxing district. Basically everyone who wasn't poor, and some of the poor, fled and came back later - there were refugee camps for the poor who tried to flee. We have mass graves from the epidemic, and several Episcopal nuns who died nursing the sick have their own feast day in the church to commemorate their sacrifice. General Hood and his wife died of yellow fever that year in New Orleans, leaving ten orphans.

Jefferson Davis was a frequent visitor to Memphis after the war - if I recall, his son lived here? There was a park named after him until recently, and lots of the early literature surrounding the Memphis Carnival hyped his involvement.

Re: using Forrest. My observation of Forrest is that he was completely intolerant of people he felt were dumber than himself. That's not a laudable quality in a subordinate commander. For one thing, his judgement about other people's relative intelligence was not 100%, and for another sometimes even a dumb plan works if everyone gets behind it. But no plan works if the person appointed to carry it out half-***** it because he thinks it's stupid, waits until things start to go sour and then throws up his hands in frustration and breaks off to do what he wanted to do instead. Most of Forrest's failures seem to follow this pattern, while his successes tend to be times when he had no one telling him what to do. Jefferson Davis and his half-baked notions of himself as Interferer-in-Chief plus Forrest in close contact seems likely to have resulted in murder. It's just as well he didn't make more use of him.

 

[tmh10]

I think Forrest was held back a good deal but he had also put himself in a position where he couldn't be used more effectively. He didn't get on with Bragg and some others who didn't think much of him, and found it was better if he had a more or less independent command. Davis, however, simply regarded him as a talented raider. Forrest submitted a good plan to clean out the lawless elements along a sizable stretch of the Mississippi and return a large number of men to service, and even more daringly possibly retrieve a goodly patch of lost territory. Davis glanced at it and stuffed it into a drawer - later, after all was over, he looked at the proposal and was astounded at how good it was!

Bill was bushwhacked on the Natchez Trace by a former scout of his whom he had helped put in prison for five years for killing another scout. After the man got out he got three or four cousins and a couple Matlocks, who feuded with the Forrests off and on, and made a revenge attack on Bill. Bill was even more ferocious in a fight than was his older brother! He did in some of the gang and damaged the rest, but was injured himself. Some years later with a stomach problem, it apparently finished his business on this earth.

I agree with you,Diane for the most part, but I think if Forrest was under a different Commanding General, not Bragg, he would have been used according to his talent. I think a leader such as Longstreet may have been able to see Forrest strong points and use them to best advantage.

 

[diane]

I used to have a horse named Natchez Trace. It's funny to me to imagine being afraid there - back in the days before cell phones, that part of the country was the sort of place you get help within minutes when you break down. Good ol' boys are good for that at least.

Diane, there were yearly outbreaks of yellow fever but the big year was 1878. Memphis became a taxing district. Basically everyone who wasn't poor, and some of the poor, fled and came back later - there were refugee camps for the poor who tried to flee. We have mass graves from the epidemic, and several Episcopal nuns who died nursing the sick have their own feast day in the church to commemorate their sacrifice. General Hood and his wife died of yellow fever that year in New Orleans, leaving ten orphans.

Jefferson Davis was a frequent visitor to Memphis after the war - if I recall, his son lived here? There was a park named after him until recently, and lots of the early literature surrounding the Memphis Carnival hyped his involvement.

Re: using Forrest. My observation of Forrest is that he was completely intolerant of people he felt were dumber than himself. That's not a laudable quality in a subordinate commander. For one thing, his judgement about other people's relative intelligence was not 100%, and for another sometimes even a dumb plan works if everyone gets behind it. But no plan works if the person appointed to carry it out half-***** it because he thinks it's stupid, waits until things start to go sour and then throws up his hands in frustration and breaks off to do what he wanted to do instead. Most of Forrest's failures seem to follow this pattern, while his successes tend to be times when he had no one telling him what to do. Jefferson Davis and his half-baked notions of himself as Interferer-in-Chief plus Forrest in close contact seems likely to have resulted in murder. It's just as well he didn't make more use of him.

Thanks for the information on the epidemics! I knew there was a terrible one that took off thousands up and down the Mississippi, and, as you say, Hood was one of them. Hard times, for sure. But it may have been a factor in the deaths of Bill and Forrest both - hard telling. Forrest was so sick the last year of his life he couldn't leave his bed, and before that he'd been to the last reunion of his men he would ever attend. He stayed on his horse and spoke to them from there, but he couldn't walk without leaning on a couple of people.

Well, I think you're partly right on Forrest - he didn't suffer fools gladly by any means. He could be cantankerous and high-handed, too. But he usually did put effort into a plan he was ordered to carry out even if he wasn't 100% behind it. Dover was an example. He did not think any good would come of it but he did do the best job he could have. Afterwards he dressed down Wheeler and vowed never to serve under him again. Same with Bragg. He did not want to serve under officers he believed would waste the lives of his men. But you're right - he did his best work when he was operating by his own lights.

 

[diane]

I agree with you,Diane for the most part, but I think if Forrest was under a different Commanding General, not Bragg, he would have been used according to his talent. I think a leader such as Longstreet may have been able to see Forrest strong points and use them to best advantage.

Ol' Joe saw them, too, and would have been a good commander for Forrest. Forrest had a bit of redneck snobbery about him with the upper class, generally because he was all too aware of his poor education. Johnston was quite the aristocrat. Still, Johnston would have used him much differently than Bragg did.

 

[tmh10]

Ol' Joe saw them, too, and would have been a good commander for Forrest. Forrest had a bit of redneck snobbery about him with the upper class, generally because he was all too aware of his poor education. Johnston was quite the aristocrat. Still, Johnston would have used him much differently than Bragg did.

Agreed, Diane. The only other Confederate General I can think of that would be able to handle Forrest may have been Jackson. He was a very good judge of talent. He could have been able to use Forrest knowing what he was best at and avoid the parts of his character that were his weak points.

 

[diane]

Agreed, Diane. The only other Confederate General I can think of that would be able to handle Forrest may have been Jackson. He was a very good judge of talent. He could have been able to use Forrest knowing what he was best at and avoid the parts of his character that were his weak points.

Jackson and Forrest is an interesting combination. They would have either loved each other or spent the war with each other's hands around their throats! (Have to cut down the cussing around Old Blue Light, though...)

 

[tmh10]

Jackson and Forrest is an interesting combination. They would have either loved each other or spent the war with each other's hands around their throats! (Have to cut down the cussing around Old Blue Light, though...)

Ha, I take your point, but I think Jackson would make allowances for a man like Forrest. Jackson liked results and Forrest was good at that.

 

[roberts]

We had several near President's Island in 2010 - you can look it up! People were having conniptions, as that area is used for recreational boating, and as an industrial complex, today.

Here's the skinny on gators and Presidents Island...

http://www.memphisflyer.com/memphis/wild-in-memphis/Content?oid=3033378

 

[roberts]

I think around the time of Forrest's death there had been a couple of yellow fever epidemics in Memphis? ..............Forrest had a lot of visitors the day he died, Jefferson Davis being one of them. He stayed on to be a pall bearer, too. ."

Memphis had terrible yellow fever epidemics in 1873 and 1878...the one in 1878 almost destroyed the city. When Forrest ran the penal colony/plantation on President's Island one of his duties was to intercept boats at the south end of the island and quarantine suspected cases of Yellow Fever.

Jefferson Davis lived for a number of years in Memphis after the war so he had a chance to get to know Forrest. They were both in the insurance business at the same time. Jefferson Davis, Jr his son died during the 1878 fever outbreak although by that time Jeff Sr was at Beavoir. Davis' other son had died of typhoid fever a few years earlier.

Expired Image Removed Jefferson Davis, Jr

 

[diane]

Memphis had terrible yellow fever epidemics in 1873 and 1878...the one in 1878 almost destroyed the city. When Forrest ran the penal colony/plantation on President's Island one of his duties was to intercept boats at the south end of the island and quarantine suspected cases of Yellow Fever.

Jefferson Davis lived for a number of years in Memphis after the war so he had a chance to get to know Forrest. They were both in the insurance business at the same time. Jefferson Davis, Jr his son died during the 1878 fever outbreak although by that time Jeff Sr was at Beavoir. Davis' other son had died of typhoid fever a few years earlier.

Expired Image Removed Jefferson Davis, Jr

Thanks! Great information. I didn't think he ran the penal colony, just hired help from it. Think he was one of the first to see if there was a use for President's Island for cultivation. Strangely, he moved there because he thought it was healthier for his wife - if he was quarantining people that's odd! However, it probably was a better climate than the epidemic-ridden city.

 

[Allie]

Here's the skinny on gators and Presidents Island...

http://www.memphisflyer.com/memphis/wild-in-memphis/Content?oid=3033378

Great article! I should read the Flyer more often.

 

[War Horse]

Thanks for the information on the epidemics! I knew there was a terrible one that took off thousands up and down the Mississippi, and, as you say, Hood was one of them. Hard times, for sure. But it may have been a factor in the deaths of Bill and Forrest both - hard telling. Forrest was so sick the last year of his life he couldn't leave his bed, and before that he'd been to the last reunion of his men he would ever attend. He stayed on his horse and spoke to them from there, but he couldn't walk without leaning on a couple of people.

Well, I think you're partly right on Forrest - he didn't suffer fools gladly by any means. He could be cantankerous and high-handed, too. But he usually did put effort into a plan he was ordered to carry out even if he wasn't 100% behind it. Dover was an example. He did not think any good would come of it but he did do the best job he could have. Afterwards he dressed down Wheeler and vowed never to serve under him again. Same with Bragg. He did not want to serve under officers he believed would waste the lives of his men. But you're right - he did his best work when he was operating by his own lights.

All great Forest stories, I personally love the way he marched into Bragg'a tent and told him exactly what he thought of him and that he would no longer follow his orders. When riding away from the tent his companion exclaimed there will be charges against you by morning and Foreest replied nope he will say nothing of it and I shall request a transfer. He was right. Grant himself had little respect for confederate Calvary and when reports of calvary came to him he always asked if it was Forest. If the reply was no he did not take to much concern with it but he liked to keep an eye on Forrest. As for Forrest serving under Jackson, well that might have been a stretch but he and Longstreet would have gotten along quite well I'm Sure. Very interesting thread thank you.