Food for thought

[Elennsar]

http://www.madminutegames.com/MadMinuteBB/viewtopic.php?t=7477

Just posting this to see if anyone feels they'd add anything to the short description of each in terms of weighing them as of that period.

Jackson has just demonstrated both remarkable performance (in the Shenandoah) and disappointing performance (in the Seven Days - whether it was understandable or not, it was worse than expected and enough so to make it worth Lee's time to address).

In my opinion, (Harvey) Hill might have had the qualifications for corps command, the same with Ewell (I would prefer Hill however) - but on the other hand, he grossly lacks some of them.

Jones seems to have been reasonable with a division - he's never mentioned as a failure, but he's barely mentioned.

The same, in a different way, applies to trying to replace Jackson after his death.

Who is fit for corps command? That's a very tough position - particularly with the large (13 brigade as distinct from nine or less in the Army of the Potomac) Confederate corps.

 

[trice]

http://www.madminutegames.com/MadMinuteBB/viewtopic.php?t=7477

Just posting this to see if anyone feels they'd add anything to the short description of each in terms of weighing them as of that period.

Jackson has just demonstrated both remarkable performance (in the Shenandoah) and disappointing performance (in the Seven Days - whether it was understandable or not, it was worse than expected and enough so to make it worth Lee's time to address).

In my opinion, (Harvey) Hill might have had the qualifications for corps command, the same with Ewell (I would prefer Hill however) - but on the other hand, he grossly lacks some of them.

Jones seems to have been reasonable with a division - he's never mentioned as a failure, but he's barely mentioned.

The same, in a different way, applies to trying to replace Jackson after his death.

Who is fit for corps command? That's a very tough position - particularly with the large (13 brigade as distinct from nine or less in the Army of the Potomac) Confederate corps.

I think there isn't much choice at that point in time. Lee could not, realistically, go outside the army for new men (drag Hardee in from the West? Try to resurrect Loring? etc.?) The men you name are pretty much it.

When evaluating how Lee chose Longstreet and Jackson, it would be well to remember that Lee met Jackson for the first time in Mexico at Cerro Gordo and was well aware of the young officer. In 1851 when Jackson applies for the spot at VMI, Lee writes him a strong letter of recommendation. There is no evidence they met from 1848 to the day in 1861 when Jackson walked into Lee's office in Richmond to find out what Lee wanted done with the VMI cadets he had brought, but Lee recognized him by sight as he walked in. From that point on, Lee's orders to Jackson seem different than what he sends to others: more direct, as if he knew he had no need to coddle this man.

Lee's connection to Longstreet was not that strong. Longstreet was with the Scott Campaign, but I never saw any particular contact between them. Longstreet had been present with Johnston at conferences in 1861-62, so Lee would certainly have had a sense of him by July.

If you are looking for an out-of-left-field name, try Franklin Gardner (hero of Port Hudson). Son of a US Army general in the War of 1812, grandson of an AmRev hero. Born in NY with a LA mother, married into the Mouton family in LA. Exchanged in August 1864, Bragg tried to get him assigned to the AoT as a Corps commander. I don't know if Lee actually knew him in Mexico, but they were at all the same places in Scott's campaign. He was probably the man Bragg should have put in charge of his cavalry instead of Wheeler (Gardner actually reorganized the army's cavalry in March-April of 1862, around Shiloh, and made Brigadier April 11).

In 1862, he was at Shiloh (cavalry), then in Bragg's Invasion of Kentucky (infantry). He was an 1843 USMA grad like Grant. In Mexico he served with Zachary Taylor and Winfield Scott like Grant, was breveted twice (1st Lt. for Monterey and Capt. for Cerro Gordo) Was at Ft. Bridger in Wyoming when secession came; went back to LA to join the Confederacy, which is how he ends up attached to Bragg.

He was adored by his men, and his performance at Port Hudson is a classic. Probably one of the biggest wastes of talent in the Confederacy; they needed a lot more men like this. No reason to suppose Lee knew him particularly, and his Northern birth may have held him back (or his association with Bragg). Maybe just bad luck on opportunities. Maybe politics.

But if you were looking for a real dark horse, this would be my guy. Probably too junior for what you want (didn't make Major General until Dec. 1862, was commanding a brigade in Whither's division of Polk's Corps), but if we fantasize that Lee somehow finagles him out to VA in July to take a brigade, maybe he's commanding a division by the end of 1862 (2nd Manassas, Antietam and Fredericksburg offer lots of opportunities to shine and advance). Maybe that makes him a candidate for a Corps in 1863, giving an alternative to Ewell and A. P. Hill.

One thing is sure: Grant would have had a tougher time in the Vicksburg Campaign if Gardner had been the transplanted Northerner commanding instead of Pemberton -- and Gardner probably would have obeyed Johnston better.

Tim

 

[Elennsar]

Certainly sounds like someone who at the least was a very, very good man for division level authority (including possibly a cavalry corps of six or so brigades as within the range I'd feel confident in - beyond that we're speculating, though I have no reason to doubt him besides it being a big leap).

Did not know that about Lee's feelings for Jackson - that's interesting.

Lee was not the type to give respect in this sense without careful consideration - and his judgement is pretty good - though Jackson as a teacher is on my list of "oh my god what the ---- was he thinking" things about Jackson (he simply did not have the skills in some respects.) Though he did have a good knowledge basis to show how artillery is supposed to work and what military discipline means, and I suppose that counts for something at VMI that being a "better teacher" wouldn't.

But as of the post-Seven Days, it sounds like even if you want to find someone better than Jackson, you don't have much to work with.

That's the eternal problem with "what would have been ideal" in any military what if of any sort - choices tend to be extremely limited for one reason and another.

Got to take the least rotten apple, rather than hoping to find fresh ones.

Not always. But finding the "well, he wasn't as bad as he's been portrayed" type is a lot easier than finding the types like Porter Alexander or Hunt (and a few others to be fair - I'm thinking of the artillery here, though it applies in all branches).

 

[trice]

...
Not always. But finding the "well, he wasn't as bad as he's been portrayed" type is a lot easier than finding the types like Porter Alexander or Hunt (and a few others to be fair - I'm thinking of the artillery here, though it applies in all branches).

A lot of good ones in the artillery got out -- because there was very little advancement to be found. Making colonel, even major, in the artillery was tough. Change branches and you might suddenly find yourself a brigadier.

Tim

 

[Elennsar]

I can think of two examples without trying - James Dearing (Confederate, transfered to the cavalry) and Stephen Weed (Union, transfered to the infantry).

Make that three - Romeyn B. Ayres (same as Weed).

Ridiculous - even if they seem to have served well in their transfered branches.

Though, what can you do about it? Even if you had an artillery "brigade" to use the federal term commanded by a brigadier general (with "artillery reserve" for Hunt or someone in a similar position being equivalant to a corps - artillery reserve as in the two "battalions" per corps the AoNVA used being a division), there's still not enough positions to promote an artilleryman into to give anything like rapid promotion - and stepping into dead man's shoes isn't happening often either.

 

[M E Wolf]

Dear List Members;

Several gentlemen were at first assigned to artillery and were promoted up and out.

Off hand (and not trying hard); from research of First Battle of Bull Run/Manassas; a host of Generals would come from it.

Artillery alone - Sherman's Battery was assigned near Alexandria, Virginia, and would be put in charge of a Brigade under HEINTZELMAN.

Captain Ricketts would be hot in the battle and wounded, captured then exchanged; to which he would be promoted up to General.

Captain Charles Griffin, U.S. Artillery like Ricketts; he too would be promoted up to General as well as A. Ames, a 2nd Lieutenant on one of Griffin's Batteries; to whom received a Medal of Honor and wounded in the same battle. (Note. Ricketts and Griffin had the worst of the Confederate attack on the battlefields leading up to Henry Hill).

Captain Richard Arnold, also at First Bull Run; U. S. Artillery, would be promoted to General.

Captain Romeyn Ayres was already mentioned--U. S. Artillery at Bull Run would be promoted to General.

Major William Barry, Chief of Artillery 5th US Artillery, would be promoted to General.

I'm sure there were more.

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf