Flag Expert Needed

Joined
Dec 26, 2014
I'm trying to determine the brigade/unit flags for the 30th Mississippi Infantry and 20th Miss Cavalry (Lay's Cavalry)
I'm rather sure the 30th served under the Hardee flag, but I'm totally lost as to the 20th.
Do we have any flag experts out there who can help?
 
Regiments typically went through multiple flags throughout the war. The 30th Mississippi was in Hardee's Corps up until 1864, when they were transferred to Hood's Corps (later Stephen D. Lee's) for the remainder of the war. While the army was encamped at Dalton, winter of 1863-64, all flags were replaced with the new standardized Army of Tennessee pattern (a rectangular Confederate Battle Flag, aka "St. Andrew's Cross" pattern). Only the four brigades in Cleburne's Division were allowed to a retain their Hardee flags. So the 30th MS probably received a new Army of Tennessee pattern during that time.
 
Regiments typically went through multiple flags throughout the war. The 30thMississippi was in Hardee's Corps up until 1864, when they were transferred to Hood's Corps (later Stephen D. Lee's) for the remainder of the war. While the army was encamped at Dalton, winter of 1863-64, all flags were replaced with the new standardized Army of Tennessee pattern (a rectangular Confederate Battle Flag, aka "St. Andrew's Cross" pattern). Only the four brigades in Cleburne's Division were allowed to a retain their Hardee flags. So the 30th MS probably received a new Army of Tennessee pattern during that time.
I didn't know that about the standardized Army of Tennessee flags. How far down the organization did that order go? I have some information which seems to conflict with it.

What about this flag, which would have been in the same army?

http://freepages.military.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~bsdunagan/12thcav.html

My ancestor with the 7th Tennessee cavalry records a rush on the regimental flag before the surrender at Gainsville, and that it was cut in pieces and distributed among the men so as not to fall into enemy hands. He says that this flag was made from a wedding dress, like the one above. He does not describe the flag but elsewhere reminiscences about the "blue bars," so I assume it was a CBF.
 
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I didn't know that about the standardized Army of Tennessee flags. How far down the organization did that order go? I have some information which seems to conflict with it.

What about this flag, which would have been in the same army?

http://freepages.military.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~bsdunagan/12thcav.html

My ancestor with the 7th Tennessee cavalry records a rush on the regimental flag before the surrender at Gainsville, and that it was cut in pieces and distributed among the men so as not to fall into enemy hands. He says that this flag was made from a wedding dress, like the one above. He does not describe the flag but elsewhere reminiscences about the "blue bars," so I assume it was a CBF.
Some regiments may have been able retain their old flags. Although, according to the site you linked, that particular flag was presented to the brigade, so it's also possible that it was used as the brigade headquarters flag.
 
Since I accidentally stumbled upon a 7th Cav flag photo, I thought I would post it here. This fellow is Albert Henry Dashiell Perkins, co. E of the 7th Tenn cavalry. He does seem to have a CBF. This is clearly a staged studio photo.

image.jpg


Did only regiments get flags or was there a company level? Sorry for dumb questions!
 
Since I accidentally stumbled upon a 7th Cav flag photo, I thought I would post it here. This fellow is Albert Henry Dashiell Perkins, co. E of the 7th Tenn cavalry. He does seem to have a CBF. This is clearly a staged studio photo.

View attachment 55938

Did only regiments get flags or was there a company level? Sorry for dumb questions!


That actually looks like the 2nd National flag to me.

The Stainless Banner.

upload_2015-1-9_0-17-33.jpeg
 
That actually looks like the 2nd National flag to me.

The Stainless Banner.

View attachment 55939
Oh, you're right, I wasn't seeing half of it! Is it cool to let it droop on the ground like that? Won't stay stainless for long!

That actually explains how one flag can be stainless, which he rhapsodizes about in one place, and have blue bars, which he rhapsodizes about in another. I wouldn't have guessed this flag for this unit, but it also explains how it could be made from a wedding dress.
 
Last edited:
Since I accidentally stumbled upon a 7th Cav flag photo, I thought I would post it here. This fellow is Albert Henry Dashiell Perkins, co. E of the 7th Tenn cavalry. He does seem to have a CBF. This is clearly a staged studio photo.

View attachment 55938

Did only regiments get flags or was there a company level? Sorry for dumb questions!
At the beginning of the war, in many cases, company flags were sewn by the local ladies where the company was recruited from and presented to the men before marching off to war. When these companies became part of a regiment, the regiment usually received its own flag and the company flags were either sent back home or carried along but not flown.

The flag in the photo is definitely a 2nd National; it's certainly not a company flag since the 2nd National wasn't around til 1863. It would have been manufactured at a clothing depot or by civilian contractors and issued to the regiment.

According to this site http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/us-csah2.html :

Department of Alabama, Mississippi and East Louisiana pattern battle flags as made in Mobile.

The Department of Alabama, Mississippi and East Louisiana was, in 1863, commanded by Gen. Joseph Johnston. After the fall of Vicksburg and reorganizing the defense of the department, Johnston turned to standardizing the battle flags of his troops. The first examples of the new pattern started appearing in October, 1863, probably to units of Gen. William Jackson's cavalry division. After Johnston's transfer to Georgia in late December, Gen. Leonidas Polk, carried out the standardizing of battle flags for the troops of the department which included the Army of Mississippi, Nathan Bedford Forrest's Cavalry Corps and the troops of the District of the Gulf, which included Mobile.

Resembling the Army of Tennessee pattern in that it too was rectangular, and lacked color exterior borders (again Johnston's preference), the new flag featured only 12 stars. This may have been due to the flag of the 5th Company, Washington Artillery of New Orleans being sent to Mobile for safekeeping during the war and that flag serving as a model.

Overall the flags varied in size somewhat, with the flags for Forrest's Cavalry being the smallest in terms of dimensions. The gamut runs from flags of 42 by 53 inches to 48 by 55 inches. The stars were a uniform 4 1/2 inches across and were spaced every 8 1/2 inches typically. The blue bars varied from 6 to 8 1/2 inches in width. Forrest's flags were 37 by 46 inches usually and the cross was 7 inches wide. The star spacing varied from 6 3/4 to 7 1/2 inches. The exterior borders were double hemmed to prevent fraying. On many of the flags of this pattern the hoist edge was folded over and sewn into a sleeve for attachment to the pole, while other examples have a white canvas heading sewn to the hoist edge.

Two contractors were responsible for making these flags. One, a husband and wife team and local residents Jackson and Sarah Belknap, he a sign painter by trade, had been making flags for troops since the early days of secession, even advertising his services in neighboring states. His wife Sarah had even gotten into the act of making flags after her husband had been appointed clerk of the military court in October, 1863 (although she was probably already involved with the other flags).

The other contractor involved with this new pattern was Memphis transplant James Cameron. Cameron had made flags in Memphis before being forced to leave the city when it fell to the Federals in June, 1862. Between Memphis and Mobile, Cameron made money manufacturing tents for the army.

The Belknaps, according to invoices in the National Archives, made some 42 flags prior to May, 1864 and even more after. These were the new pattern of 12 star battle flags. Cameron furnished an additional 25 flags in March. In the late Fall, 1863, Belknap made a few Second National battle flags for Gibson's Louisiana Brigade as well as the first issues of the 12 star departmental design for Jackson's troopers.
 

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