First submarine.

major bill

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
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Aug 25, 2012
Many Americans probably believe the Hunley was the first submarine. I am not sure we could call the Hunley the first submarine. The Hunley us by far the most famous submarine of the Civil War.
 
Was the first US submarine used in the American Revolution? Some are not completely sure ie existed.
 
Many Americans probably believe the Hunley was the first submarine. I am not sure we could call the Hunley the first submarine. The Hunley us by far the most famous submarine of the Civil War.
How do you define the word "submarine" vs a submersible craft? For example one could definitely argue that the first true submarine was the USS Nautilus in the 1950s because it could sail completely submerged. The German Type XXI introduced very late in WW2 could sail completely submerged but required a snorkel.
Arguably the world's first submersible craft used in combat was the Colonial Rebels " Turtle". I will have to Google it . I know it wasn't a smashing success.
Leftyhunter
 
Does no one study American History or the American Revolutionary War? David Bushnell and his Turtle were American heroes for Goodness Sake.
Regards
David
 
Does no one study American History or the American Revolutionary War? David Bushnell and his Turtle were American heroes for Goodness Sake.
Regards
David
True although per the Wikipedia article the attack of the Turtle against the British warship " Eagle" may never actually occurred. I beat you to mentioning the Turtle by at least a full minute so at least some one else knew if it.
Arguably the Turtle was a submersible craft not a submarine as mentioned previously.
The submersible craft really was not a practical weapon until the WW1 German U Boats .
Leftyhunter
 
The Hunley's claim to fame is the FIRST submarine to sink a warship.
Arguably the Huntley is not a submarine but a submersible craft. The Huntley did sink a warship but practical submersible craft would not be available until at least 1907 and not draw blood until WW1.
Leftyhunter
 
Bushnell’s Turtle during the American Revolution ?
Wow !
I've never heard that allegation before.
Do you have any sources regarding this claim ?
Thanks.

The Turtle has been reported to have been more propaganda than fact. I am no expert on the subject. The Turtle was constructed in some secrecy and some doubt it made the attempted attack some claim it made. I understand the reproductions of the vessel have some issues.
 
I am in Florida and well away from my library, so no. I thought our naval experts would know what was considered the first submarine. So does anyone know if the design of the Turtle could have moved underwater in a meaning full way?

I am not sure the Hunley or the Alligator would be called submarines and perhaps if one calls them submersible crafts, so too could the Turtle.

To me it looks like the Turtle could not have probably have moved far on the available air. It appears that the shape would have made it difficult to move in a straight direction.

Perhaps others are more familiar with this story.
 
The Hunley and the Alligator could conduct limited operations under water. So could have the Turtle, based on its design, have made the attempted attack on the Eagle?
 
Arguably the Huntley is not a submarine but a submersible craft. The Huntley did sink a warship but practical submersible craft would not be available until at least 1907 and not draw blood until WW1.
Leftyhunter


Truly the first true submarine was the USS Nautilus which was able to stay submerged till they had to resupply food stocks. Up until then submarines were boats (not ships) which could submerge for a limited time. My father was the COB on the USS Redfish (SS 395) and I heard that explanation many times.
Regards
David
 
As mentioned above, a distinction must be made between a diving bell, a submersible, and a submarine... and even that can get hairy.
Regardless, there are lots of claims to the first submarine, almost all of which can not be substantiated.
Bushnell's Turtle for example-
1) was never named Turtle (much like the Fish Boat submersible we call H L Hunley was never a named vessel), someone simply remarked it looked like a turtle and time has attached that as a vessel name, and
2) IF it used screw propellers (a big IF, IMO), then it would have been the first to do so by several decades. No contemporaneous drawings survive, only some later 1800s images.
(I highly suggest reading the only known contemporaneous work on the sub (possibly written by Dr. Benjamin Gale)- file is too large to attach as a PDF

Still, there are much earlier claims to the first submersible/submarine...
e.g., (but far from an exhaustive list)...
- 1850 William Borne (English) -published a treatise and theoretical description of a submersible- no evidence it was constructed
- 1623 Cornelius Drebble (English) may have made a working sub- MOST OFTEN GIVEN CREDIT AS FIRST SUB
- 1636 Marin Mersenne, a French priest and mathematician describes a theoretical submarine design- no evidence it was constructed
- 1771 David Bushnell (American)
- 1798 Robert Fulton’s (American) two attempts w/screw props fro the French and English
- 1832, 1861/2- Brutus de Villeroi (inventer of Alligator)
- 1840-50 Lodner Phillips made several iterations of "submarines"
- 1850-55 attempts by Wilhelm Bauer
- 1855 Seeteufel (Russian)- because he was Russian, we know little about his work
- 1861 McClintock and Watson- vessel we call Pioneer
- 1863 McClintock and Watson- vessel we call Pioneer II or American Diver
- 1863 McClintock and Watson- the "fish boat" we call H. L. Hunley
- 1863 Plonguer (French) first non-human powered sub- compressed air
- 1863-7 Spanish attempts- manual power then converted to 6 cyl engine (3 steam 3 chemically heated) Ictineo I &II originally manually powered- converted in 1867 to combustion engine

EDIT: As mentioned, this is an incomplete list. See @Tut11 post #18 for a more complete list
 
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Though the Alligator reportedly first used oars for propulsion (and later a man powered propeller), in many ways it was a probably a superior design to the Hunley as it had an air purification system, an airlock for a diver and rubber bladders for ballast tanks. Unfortunately after 1863 when the Union gained the upper hand in the War they lost interest in the craft as they no longer saw a need or use for it.
 
As mentioned above, a distinction must be made between a diving bell, a submersible, and a submarine... and even that can get hairy.
Regardless, there are lots of claims to the first submarine, almost all of which can not be substantiated.
Bushnell's Turtle for example-
1) was never named Turtle (much like the Fish Boat submersible we call H L Hunley was never a named vessel), someone simply remarked it looked like a turtle and time has attached that as a vessel name, and
2) IF it used screw propellers (a big IF, IMO), then it would have been the first to do so by several decades. No contemporaneous drawings survive, only some later 1800s images.
(I highly suggest reading the only known contemporaneous work on the sub (possibly written by Dr. Benjamin Gale)- file is too large to attach as a PDF

Still, there are much earlier claims to the first submersible/submarine...
e.g., (but far from an exhaustive list)...
- 1850 William Borne (English) -published a treatise and theoretical description of a submersible- no evidence it was constructed
- 1623 Cornelius Drebble (English) may have made a working sub- MOST OFTEN GIVEN CREDIT AS FIRST SUB
- 1636 Marin Mersenne, a French priest and mathematician describes a theoretical submarine design- no evidence it was constructed
- 1771 David Bushnell (American)
- 1798 Robert Fulton’s (American) two attempts w/screw props fro the French and English
- 1832, 1861/2- Brutus de Villeroi (inventer of Alligator)
- 1840-50 Lodner Phillips made several iterations of "submarines"
- 1850-55 attempts by Wilhelm Bauer
- 1855 Seeteufel (Russian)- because he was Russian, we know little about his work
- 1861 McClintock and Watson- vessel we call Pioneer
- 1863 McClintock and Watson- vessel we call Pioneer II or American Diver
- 1863 McClintock and Watson- the "fish boat" we call H. L. Hunley
- 1863 Plonguer (French) first non-human powered sub- compressed air
- 1863-7 Spanish attempts- manual power then converted to 6 cyl engine (3 steam 3 chemically heated) Ictineo I &II originally manually powered- converted in 1867 to combustion engine

EDIT: As mentioned, this is an incomplete list. See @Tut11 post #18 for a more complete list
The Confederates were aware of the Ictineo. The designer, Monturiol, developed a range of devices for salvage and war. His use of chemical propulsion is very interesting as it might have been used for self-propelled torpedoes. A vessel using similar propulsion would have been built of iron because his wooden hulls could not handle the heat from the chemical reaction. A good book on the subject is "Monturiol's Dream".
 
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