Impressions Firing demonstrations advice

[Jack7171]

Question for reenactors,, if doing a firing demonstration with a Parker Hale Replica Enfield, how would I get the loudest bang for the public? I imagine a live round would be loudest, but that's out of the question. We did a firing demo at an event last year, and 2 reenactors bit the paper, dumped the powder, then fired ,like they do at a force on force reenactment. The resulting little poofs left the visitors, especially the boys, less than impressed. Is there a different way to maybe increase the experience to a bit more realistic demo? Would ramming help? Adding a wad, then ramming? I've fired tens of thousands of rounds as a machine gunner in the service, so I'm not unfamiliar, except when it comes percussion rifles. My Ruger old Army belches fire, throws sparks, and kicks with plenty of bass in its report,, but the rifles barely make a dainty "poot" ,,like a girl fart. Any experience with making a bit more oomph?

 

[Dan Kohli]

I'd do believe that ramming and and a wad of paper would work for the demonstration. It might not be the same as a live round, but it would be an improvement.

 

[Dan Kohli]

Ramming for the demo also gives the public a better idea of how muskets were loaded.

 

[13 IL Cav & 64 GA Inf]

I'd do believe that ramming and and a wad of paper would work for the demonstration. It might not be the same as a live round, but it would be an improvement.

@Dan Kohli is right, at least in my experience with firing of a Rev. War reproduction French Charleville musket. Ramming and a wad.

 

[13 IL Cav & 64 GA Inf]

Ramming for the demo also gives the public a better idea of how muskets were loaded.

Just for info., there's a separate thread going on now about the propriety/safety of using ramrods in force on force events.

 

[Dan Kohli]

Just for info., there's a separate thread going on now about the propriety/safety of using ramrods in force on force events.

Thanks. I was vaguely aware that there was that discussion going on.

 

[Rhea Cole]

The answer is become a red leg. The piff-poof of musket fire is exactly how it sounds. No point in putting lip stick on a pig.

No doubt you are going to hear about all kinds of clever ways to get more bang out of a .58 caliber barrel. My favorite was lots of wading that enveloped the line with clouds of snowflakes with every volley.

You have already described using hot loads in a pistol, a notoriously hazardous practice. There is no point in getting yourself or a visitor hurt just to make more noise.

Link to effect of using louder powder;

Two injured after a black powder rifle explodes in Kanawha County - WV MetroNews

Investigators say the pair mishandled the muzzleloader and used improper ammunition

wvmetronews.com

Link to fatality from pistol loaded blank with black powder,:

Fatal contact shot to the chest caused by the gas jet from a muzzle-loading pistol discharging only black powder and no bullet: case study and experimental simulation of the wounding effect - PubMed

In modern medico-legal literature, only a small number of publications deal with fatal injuries from black powder guns. Most of them focus on the morphological features such as intense soot soiling, blast tattooing and burn effects in close-range shots or describe the wound ballistics of...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Our hobby is dangerous enough without people violating safety precautions.

 

[RedRover]

The 1860s live round for the Enfield cartridge contained 60 grains of black powder.

Blank cartridges also 60 grains.

The British at the time were using blanks with 3.5 drams of powder, or just over 90 grains. But they were cheeky fellows.

Reenactment events often have posted maximum charges for use on site. 60 grains max seems standard. As mentioned above, wadding and ramming the cartridge paper might add something to the report, but being particularly loud wasn't necessarily their purpose.

At events where ramming with blanks was barred, my friends and I would demonstrate the loading with ramrod without the blank, to demonstrate the soldiers' training and method. Then afterwards load a blank without ramrod, in the common reenactment fashion, simply to fire and point out the smoke produced by the black powder, etc.

 

[13 IL Cav & 64 GA Inf]

The 1860s live round for the Enfield cartridge contained 60 grains of black powder.

View attachment 538993
View attachment 538994


Blank cartridges also 60 grains.

View attachment 538995



The British at the time were using blanks with 3.5 drams of powder, or just over 90 grains. But they were cheeky fellows.

View attachment 538996


Reenactment events often have posted maximum charges for use on site. 60 grains max seems standard. As mentioned above, wadding and ramming the cartridge paper might add something to the report, but being particularly loud wasn't necessarily their purpose.

At events where ramming with blanks was barred, my friends and I would demonstrate the loading with ramrod without the blank, to demonstrate the soldiers' training and method. Then afterwards load a blank without ramrod, in the common reenactment fashion, simply to fire and point out the smoke produced by the black powder, etc.

Good. Hope nobody recommended using extra powder!

 

[Story]

We did a firing demo at an event last year,

Having done Safety Officer stuff in a past life, what do the Venue owner/managers feel about such?

I'd also seriously suggest posting range fan safeties (you can use distaff for this duty) to keep people from doing stupid stuff - like getting in line with your muzzle to take that ultimate photo.

Seriously, I've seen window lickers do exactly that.

 

[Jack7171]

Having done Safety Officer stuff in a past life, what do the Venue owner/managers feel about such?

I'd also seriously suggest posting range fan safeties (you can use distaff for this duty) to keep people from doing stupid stuff - like getting in line with your muzzle to take that ultimate photo.

Seriously, I've seen window lickers do exactly that.

It's a cordoned off area, they do ww2 machine guns, m16, grease guns, etc. All blank fire, into the woods, but the 2 guys that do the civil war firing demonstrations, usually 4 or 5 shots in succession, are weak, and understandably wont compare to an m60,,but the cw rifles can barely be heard and we thought maybe we could do something to give it little better booyah,,,,

 

[drezac]

while my expertise is in Artillery, here are my thoughts on it. Your mileage with muskets may vary.
Black powder is not black powder. For artillery, our battery is very particular as to the brand of powder we use. Powder from different manufacturers won't burn the same for blanks even if it's the same size of powder grains. We have found for us that Schutzen powder was the best for artillery, with Goex next. both of those give us the most Boom per load. We know one battery that purchased powder at the Daniel lady Farm bulk purchase they had a few years back. They are sorry they did. When fired out of a cannon, that powder gave no boom, just a Fwooosh. While is's expensive to do, it's best to try a few brands to see what gives you the best results.

 

[Jack7171]

while my expertise is in Artillery, here are my thoughts on it. Your mileage with muskets may vary.
Black powder is not black powder. For artillery, our battery is very particular as to the brand of powder we use. Powder from different manufacturers won't burn the same for blanks even if it's the same size of powder grains. We have found for us that Schutzen powder was the best for artillery, with Goex next. both of those give us the most Boom per load. We know one battery that purchased powder at the Daniel lady Farm bulk purchase they had a few years back. They are sorry they did. When fired out of a cannon, that powder gave no boom, just a Fwooosh. While is's expensive to do, it's best to try a few brands to see what gives you the best results.

That's sounds great. Thank u!

 

[13 IL Cav & 64 GA Inf]

while my expertise is in Artillery, here are my thoughts on it. Your mileage with muskets may vary.
Black powder is not black powder. For artillery, our battery is very particular as to the brand of powder we use. Powder from different manufacturers won't burn the same for blanks even if it's the same size of powder grains. We have found for us that Schutzen powder was the best for artillery, with Goex next. both of those give us the most Boom per load. We know one battery that purchased powder at the Daniel lady Farm bulk purchase they had a few years back. They are sorry they did. When fired out of a cannon, that powder gave no boom, just a Fwooosh. While is's expensive to do, it's best to try a few brands to see what gives you the best results.

Just think of the inconsistency that both the artillery and infantry soldiers experienced in powder quality during the Civil War (especially the Confederates).

 

[drezac]

Just think of the inconsistency that both the artillery and infantry soldiers experienced in powder quality during the Civil War (especially the Confederates).

I suspect the powder was more consistent during the war. it was manufactured at the arsenals or under contract to the specifications in the Ordnance manual. Our modern powders from various sources would not be manufactured from the same set of specifications, materials, and manufacturing techniques.

Also, I would like to note that my comments are only regarding blank charges. While there are differences in the sound produced by the blank charges depending on the powder, the differences between the powders might be negligible when used for a live round.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Here are a couple of good links about black powder. Essentially black powder is the same substance that the Chinese discovered thousands of years ago. The size of the grains of powder result in the various burn rates of a charge.

A while back, Stones River received a considerable store of U.S. Navy torpedo warhead explosive for use in our 12 pound living history demos. The grains were about the size of thumbnail. The report was a drawn out kaaa-whooo-whammmmm with an enormous fireball that would roil down range. Nobody ever got used to it… numbers one & two eased back away from the muzzle as far as dignity would allow & perhaps considerably more.

A History of Black Powder | Powder Valley Outdoors

Black powder is traditional, smoke-producing gunpowder dating back to 9th century China. Trace its origins, learn how it’s made, and buy it at Powder Valley.

www.powdervalley.com

Black Powder Grades, Sizes and Mesh

This chart contains black powder grain sizes of commonly used black powders as well as a comparison of Blasting and Sporting grades. Black Powder Grades & Equivalent Sizes (in mm) Sporting Grades (G) Grain Size (in mm) Blasting Grades (A) Grain Size (in mm) 1FA 8.0-4.0 Cannon G...

www.skylighter.com

 

[captaindrew]

Not sure which grain powder you're using but for blanks 3F works well and you can ram the cartridge paper down as a wad. That will certainly give you more bang. Usually we stick to 60 grains for reenactments but for demo purposes you can pour a few more grains in, 20 grains can make a big difference and won't hurt anything.

 

[Rhea Cole]

I suspect the powder was more consistent during the war. it was manufactured at the arsenals or under contract to the specifications in the Ordnance manual. Our modern powders from various sources would not be manufactured from the same set of specifications, materials, and manufacturing techniques.

Also, I would like to note that my comments are only regarding blank charges. While there are differences in the sound produced by the blank charges depending on the powder, the differences between the powders might be negligible when used for a live round.

There was, in fact, a great deal of poor quality powder issued to CSA infantry & artillery.

An example of that can be found on correspondence with the Augusta Arsenal from Charleston & Savannah.

Powder that had been condemned & returned to the arsenal by the Army of Northern Virginia was recycled. The heavy batteries that were recipients of the inferior powder did not mince words when rejecting shipments of rejects.

Waste not want not was the CSA ordinance motto. Rejected powder was habitually reissued… apparently for as long as it took to get it off the books.

Another issue that plagued CSA infantry was the arsenal's way of rolling cartridges. The exact mistake was not detailed in the IG report. Enfield imports & US arsenal cartridges were robust, holding their shape under field conditions. CSA arsenal cartridges, on the other hand, fell apart. It was not uncommon for 1/2 of them in a soldier's cartridge box to open up & spill the powder… while facing opponents armed with Spencers, no doubt.

Note: I will try to retrieve that citation from my piling system.

 

[Trooper "D"]

Question for reenactors,, if doing a firing demonstration with a Parker Hale Replica Enfield, how would I get the loudest bang for the public? I imagine a live round would be loudest, but that's out of the question. We did a firing demo at an event last year, and 2 reenactors bit the paper, dumped the powder, then fired ,like they do at a force on force reenactment. The resulting little poofs left the visitors, especially the boys, less than impressed. Is there a different way to maybe increase the experience to a bit more realistic demo? Would ramming help? Adding a wad, then ramming? I've fired tens of thousands of rounds as a machine gunner in the service, so I'm not unfamiliar, except when it comes percussion rifles. My Ruger old Army belches fire, throws sparks, and kicks with plenty of bass in its report,, but the rifles barely make a dainty "poot" ,,like a girl fart. Any experience with making a bit more oomph?

New unit idea! The Girl Fart Rangers.

 

[Trooper "D"]

Acme

View attachment 538992

The answer is become a red leg. The piff-poof of musket fire is exactly how it sounds. No point in putting lip stick on a pig.

No doubt you are going to hear about all kinds of clever ways to get more bang out of a .58 caliber barrel. My favorite was lots of wading that enveloped the line with clouds of snowflakes with every volley.

You have already described using hot loads in a pistol, a notoriously hazardous practice. There is no point in getting yourself or a visitor hurt just to make more noise.

Link to effect of using louder powder;

Two injured after a black powder rifle explodes in Kanawha County - WV MetroNews

Investigators say the pair mishandled the muzzleloader and used improper ammunition

wvmetronews.com

Link to fatality from pistol loaded blank with black powder,:

Fatal contact shot to the chest caused by the gas jet from a muzzle-loading pistol discharging only black powder and no bullet: case study and experimental simulation of the wounding effect - PubMed

In modern medico-legal literature, only a small number of publications deal with fatal injuries from black powder guns. Most of them focus on the morphological features such as intense soot soiling, blast tattooing and burn effects in close-range shots or describe the wound ballistics of...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Our hobby is dangerous enough without people violating safety precautions.

Acme in the article reminded me of Wiley Coyote. Now we know who the male idiot from the newstory is. The Female's identity may take sleuthwork.