False Torpedoes in Mobile Bay

[NH Civil War Gal]

The army has lost the remembering of steel shank boots...

I don't know what that means.

 

[NH Civil War Gal]

The naval men seemed pretty sure they were hearing the percussion caps go off, though I'm sure there were also false mines there too.

 

[NH Civil War Gal]

The naval men seemed pretty sure they were hearing the percussion caps go off, though I'm sure there were also false mines there too.

 

[NH Civil War Gal]

The naval men seemed pretty sure they were hearing the percussion caps go off, though I'm sure there were also false mines there

 

[thomas aagaard]

One more point in this. In 1983 as a junior engineer officer, I was in a strategy lesson on "Area Denial". One of the lessons was the psychological impact of fake mines. Sometimes you try to deny an enemy access to an area by just making lumps of dirt making it look like mines were planted. Sometimes you just placed minefield signs,

It is a norm in NATO to always fence in a mined area and clearly mark it with signs. That way you don't have civilians getting hurt or killed.
But that also have that specific advantage that you can make fake minefield quickly. Or make a real minefield but make a few lanes true it that are not mined. So when we need to counterattack we can do so true our own minefields.

 

[Rhea Cole]

I don't know what that means.

During the Viet Nam war punji stakes (sharpened bamboo spikes covered in filth) were placed in holes just like the Roman's did in the citation I posted up thread.

In response to that threat, US jungle boots had a steel plate to defend against the highly infectious punji spikes.

One man stepping on a punji stake required several men to assist & a helicopter evacuation. The infection caused by the filth could lead to a long recovery & potential disablement.

The only punji wound I ever saw was " highly decorative " as he called it. The tip had been notched in order to break off in the wound. It was on the outside of his foot. The incision necessary to remove point & cleanse the wound was left open to drain.

Link:

Punji stick - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

There is a Civil War era treatise that dealt with similar wounds. Army doctor Lt Col Joseph Bill, MD wrote what is considered the definitive work on the subject to this day.

Link:

Arrow Wounds

I know you like this kind of stuff.

 

[NH Civil War Gal]

"The advantages of bows over guns were even apparent to Benjamin Franklin. In a 1775 letter to General Charles Lee, George Washington's second in command, Franklin lists five reasons why he believed the Continental soldiers and militia units should use bows and arrows against the British. According to Franklin men shoot as accurately with bows as with muskets, four arrows can be shot for every one bullet, bows are smokeless so the soldier's view is never obscured, arrows flying through the air "terrifies" the opponent, and once a person was struck by an arrow they were incapacitated until the arrow was removed.[6] Almost a hundred years later Bill's observation and experience on the western frontier were remarkable similar."

So, my question here is, why didn't the armies, at least early on until technology got to the repeating Spencers concentrate A LOT MORE on bows and arrows? In fact, I've always wondered about that in the Rev. War and the early part of the Civil War. It took a lot of time to pour black powder and make a cartridge, etc.

How did this skill get lost in the great English armies and not passed on here?

 

[Elliot Crumblemuffin]

@UCVRelics at the Mobile Muster brought up a very good point about the Battle of Mobile Bay.

Psychological Warfare was used regarding minefields in the Bay. Imagine the South being short on primers for the Sea Mines. Farragut was quoted as "**** the Torpedoes" but it was heroics out of risking 2 out of 3 sea mines were just submerged barrels. Maybe Admiral Farragut was using the thinking of "Big Sea Little Barrels" in the hopes he could prosecute his attack. The CSA judiciously used sea mines or sea mimes in the bay to thwart earlier invasions.

False Mines have been used in many wars to deny or channel the attackers into a kill zone. It makes me think that since there were a lot of empty barrels the CSA was singing the Beer Barrel Polka sometimes.

That's a very interesting thought. It makes me think of those wooden "quaker" cannons at Manassas and how Gen'l Forrest once made his wagon trains go across the same spot over and over again to fool an outpost into surrender (the time/place escapes me). But besides those two examples, I'm sure there are tons more from the Civil War in particular and other wars in general.

I think I remember Farragut sending out teams in row-boats under cover of darkness to disable as many torpedos as they could before he ran into the bay. I don't remember reading about any FAKE torpedos but apparently plenty of them were duds. Could there have been fake torpedos?? Maybe...it's a good question and given the way the South had to improvise to compensate for material shortages it wouldn't surprise me!

 

[NH Civil War Gal]

That's a very interesting thought. It makes me think of those wooden "quaker" cannons at Manassas and how Gen'l Forrest once made his wagon trains go across the same spot over and over again to fool an outpost into surrender (the time/place escapes me). But besides those two examples, I'm sure there are tons more from the Civil War in particular and other wars in general.

I think I remember Farragut sending out teams in row-boats under cover of darkness to disable as many torpedos as they could before he ran into the bay. I don't remember reading about any FAKE torpedos but apparently plenty of them were duds. Could there have been fake torpedos?? Maybe...it's a good question and given the way the South had to improvise to compensate for material shortages it wouldn't surprise me!

Source please on disabling torpedoes in the dark. I never read that the Union Navy had their own UXB squad! Not saying they didn't but how would they have done that?

 

[Elliot Crumblemuffin]

Source please on disabling torpedoes in the dark. I never read that the Union Navy had their own UXB squad! Not saying they didn't but how would they have done

Oh boy... I'll have to find the source and it was about half a dozen books back . I'll dig around

 

[Rhea Cole]

"The advantages of bows over guns were even apparent to Benjamin Franklin. In a 1775 letter to General Charles Lee, George Washington's second in command, Franklin lists five reasons why he believed the Continental soldiers and militia units should use bows and arrows against the British. According to Franklin men shoot as accurately with bows as with muskets, four arrows can be shot for every one bullet, bows are smokeless so the soldier's view is never obscured, arrows flying through the air "terrifies" the opponent, and once a person was struck by an arrow they were incapacitated until the arrow was removed.[6] Almost a hundred years later Bill's observation and experience on the western frontier were remarkable similar."

So, my question here is, why didn't the armies, at least early on until technology got to the repeating Spencers concentrate A LOT MORE on bows and arrows? In fact, I've always wondered about that in the Rev. War and the early part of the Civil War. It took a lot of time to pour black powder and make a cartridge, etc.

How did this skill get lost in the great English armies and not passed on here?

English longbow men hit targets out to 200 yards. More to the point, Civil War soldiers were subject to arrows nocked two at a time.

Link:

Punitive Expeditions | The U.S.-Dakota War of 1862

"I hope you will not believe all that is said of 'Sully’s Successful Expedition' against the Sioux. I don’t think he ought to brag of it at all, because it was, what no decent man would have done, he pitched into their camp and just slaughtered them, worse a great deal than what the Indians did...

www.usdakotawar.org

I have made a new post asking a question raised by our conversation in this thread. During the Indian Wars, infantrymen folded blankets & wrapped them around to create a sort of anti-arrow flack jacket.

Has anyone ever heard of that or have a Civil War reference?

 

[NH Civil War Gal]

That "Sully's Successful Expedition" is pretty horrible.

 

[SpanishFort]

In the appendices of my book, I list the gunboats that struck torpedoes in Mobile Bay from August 5, 1864, to well into May 1865. They effectively neutralized Thatcher's fleet for two weeks during the siege of the Spanish Fort. It was not until the last day of the siege were they finally able to get within range to launch shells into the southern portion of Spanish Fort.

 

[MasonDixon]

The cross bow question is a really outstanding one! I have pondered this since the bow had greater range than the musket. It also had barrage effect, cheaper to manufacture, bolts recoverable and reusable especially in open field warfare that both sides liked to employ.

 

[Bruce Allardice]

English longbow men hit targets out to 200 yards. More to the point, Civil War soldiers were subject to arrows nocked two at a time.

Link:

Punitive Expeditions | The U.S.-Dakota War of 1862

"I hope you will not believe all that is said of 'Sully’s Successful Expedition' against the Sioux. I don’t think he ought to brag of it at all, because it was, what no decent man would have done, he pitched into their camp and just slaughtered them, worse a great deal than what the Indians did...

www.usdakotawar.org

I have made a new post asking a question raised by our conversation in this thread. During the Indian Wars, infantrymen folded blankets & wrapped them around to create a sort of anti-arrow flack jacket.

Has anyone ever heard of that or have a Civil War reference?

There's plenty of videos showing that the bow's arrow (long or otherwise) simply can't penetrate layers of loose-flowing clothing (or the blankets you mention) enough to provide any lethal effect. Historically, the mounted troops of Asia dressed in loose-fitting robes for this reason.
Then there's the question of ammunition. Arrows were very time consuming to make and cost a lot more than bullets. Plus expertise with a bow is much harder to learn than firing a rifle.