Ellen Ramseur,

[FarawayFriend]

Jessica has gathered quite a bit of info on the Chamberlain woman as she believes in reincarnation and has found evidence that leads her to believe that she is Fanny Chamberlain. Regardless of ones beliefs on that matter, both Jessica and Fanny are very strong woman.)

Wow! I will follow the link but can you already tell something about the evidence? That's absolutely fascinating. I don't know if I believe this, but I would never think it totally impossible.

Nice to hear that you come to the conclusion that JLC did like Fanny for her independent mind. I have just read the book "Intimate strategies of the Civil War : Military commanders and their wives", ed. by Carol Bleser and in the Chamberlain chapter the author described that although both Chamberlains were very affectionate and held each other in high esteem, everyday life at times was not easy to them because of the reasons I mentioned earlier. I tend to believe in your assessment though (because I want to believe it and because I think you did very good research work). Before reading "Fanny and Joshua" I will have to read Alice Trulock's "In the hands of providence" and "Joshua L. Chamberlain : a life in letters" ed. by Thomas Desjardin, because I got them already.

I hope we will find a Chamberlain subforum soon, I'm really looking forward to hearing more about him.

 

[suzenatale]

Wow! I will follow the link but can you already tell something about the evidence? That's absolutely fascinating. I don't know if I believe this, but I would never think it totally impossible.

I believe Jessica talks about it on her site. I can't say I believe it either, but as you say, anything could be possible. I will not deny that studying history can be very therapeutic. Seeing how others surmounted obstacles in their paths can help us over our own.

Ill have to check out "Military commanders and their wives" I hadn't heard of that before.

 

[JPK Huson 1863]

Ah, suzentale, there you are! Hate to ask, but I honestly think I'd make an incomplete job of it. It's also tough to get a good read on her due to various biographers having various takes on Chamberlain- the anti-Joshua's love her, the pro-Joshua's portray her as cold and heartless. I like Chamberlain, ( all of us have disclaimers, he didn't walk on water, folks are SO black and white- my one smudge I can't get past has to do with Oates and the monument ) so can be bias about Fanny, which she may not deserve.

I'd love to have threads here and there on general's wives- already have some, think Fanny should be here. If it's possible, may I ask you do a bio on her, please? Understand if you have no time, it'd be the story of most folk's lives here, no hard feelings if you have to decline. I have a book Dad left me, of course you must have it, The Grand Old Man From Maine? I disremember which letters in there would be relevent, if it saves you time, I'd be happy to re-type any.

 

[suzenatale]

Ah, suzentale, there you are! Hate to ask, but I honestly think I'd make an incomplete job of it. It's also tough to get a good read on her due to various biographers having various takes on Chamberlain- the anti-Joshua's love her, the pro-Joshua's portray her as cold and heartless. I like Chamberlain, ( all of us have disclaimers, he didn't walk on water, folks are SO black and white- my one smudge I can't get past has to do with Oates and the monument ) so can be bias about Fanny, which she may not deserve.

I'd love to have threads here and there on general's wives- already have some, think Fanny should be here. If it's possible, may I ask you do a bio on her, please? Understand if you have no time, it'd be the story of most folk's lives here, no hard feelings if you have to decline. I have a book Dad left me, of course you must have it, The Grand Old Man From Maine? I disremember which letters in there would be relevent, if it saves you time, I'd be happy to re-type any.

I think you're right that some of the earlier biographers portrayed Fanny as cold and heartless. They saw her traveling so much during the war, leaving her kids behind in the hands of others, and they imagined her as an cold uncaring woman. But rather than trying to escape her family Fanny was actually trying to meet up with her husband on sick leave. Unfortunately letters getting lost in the mail caused Fanny to be waiting in city's like New York for a husband that wasn't coming after all, while Lawrence, expecting her somewhere else was writing bitter letters of where are you?
The did finally meet up and apparently had a romantic time together because Fanny ended up getting pregnant.
While Fanny's letters are scattered across several books like "The Grand Old Man," Diane Smith quotes from several of them and puts them in context in her book Fanny and Joshua. I can't recommend her book enough.

I'll add a Fanny bio to my to do list, not sure when I'll get to it.

 

[JPK Huson 1863]

Thanks very much- I understand most folks are busy out here. It's just a little important, as I'm increasingly aware of, not to leave some permanent post here which is not reflective of who these people genuinely were as they moved through their world. Who knows who might be out there armed with a Google search, dependent on what they might believe is THE information found here, for instance, because this is a forum based around our American Civil War. Someone recently pulled up an old post of mine, for instance, quoted it along with the comment ' This is BS '. And it was, no excuses. Probably so far off no one would use it as a source regardless but still, if I'm going to be responsible for leaving what should be biographical information on folks, be good to have it right.

 

[FarawayFriend]

I think you're right that some of the earlier biographers portrayed Fanny as cold and heartless. They saw her traveling so much during the war, leaving her kids behind in the hands of others, and they imagined her as an cold uncaring woman. But rather than trying to escape her family Fanny was actually trying to meet up with her husband on sick leave. Unfortunately letters getting lost in the mail caused Fanny to be waiting in city's like New York for a husband that wasn't coming after all, while Lawrence, expecting her somewhere else was writing bitter letters of where are you?
The did finally meet up and apparently had a romantic time together because Fanny ended up getting pregnant.
While Fanny's letters are scattered across several books like "The Grand Old Man," Diane Smith quotes from several of them and puts them in context in her book Fanny and Joshua. I can't recommend her book enough.

I'll add a Fanny bio to my to do list, not sure when I'll get to it.

I'm looking forward to that!
I think Fanny's bad reputation not only resulted from her leaving the kids behind but also from Lawrence's complaints that she had apparently told someone that he had mistreated her, pulled her hair, beat her etc. :
http://learn.bowdoin.edu/joshua-lawrence-chamberlain/documents/1868-11-20.html
No wonder he did not like that. And his admirers did not like that either, so she became the bad one who did not deserve living with him. My opinion.

 

[JPK Huson 1863]

Oh dear. That sounds awful! I'm also enough of a Chamberlain follower to be horrified with this. I realise it's pretty trendy 150 years later to say any, revolting, untrue thing possible about the other spouse in divorce cases- it's more than dreadful, what people come up with and what lawyers helpfully contribute to the situation, to smear someone's good reputation. Chamberlain seems to be saying here ' Look, this is ridiculous, no one is going to believe such a bald-faced fabrication, it's going to end poorly for you and it's just hurt me more than I thought possible from you- please knock it the heck off. If you want out of the marriage so badly, fine, just please shush with this ridiculous, harmful stuff, we'll settle it decently. ' Poor guy, huh?

 

[suzenatale]

Oh dear. That sounds awful! I'm also enough of a Chamberlain follower to be horrified with this. I realise it's pretty trendy 150 years later to say any, revolting, untrue thing possible about the other spouse in divorce cases- it's more than dreadful, what people come up with and what lawyers helpfully contribute to the situation, to smear someone's good reputation. Chamberlain seems to be saying here ' Look, this is ridiculous, no one is going to believe such a bald-faced fabrication, it's going to end poorly for you and it's just hurt me more than I thought possible from you- please knock it the heck off. If you want out of the marriage so badly, fine, just please shush with this ridiculous, harmful stuff, we'll settle it decently. ' Poor guy, huh?

That letter is pratically the only evidence we have of any martial difficulties after his return home. During that time they kept a positive front attending public functions together as an apparently happy couple.

I think it's a common reaction for us women to say, ah the poor wounded soldier, his wife is so mean, but you never know, maybe he was suffering from post traumatic stress disorder and did do such things like pulling her hair.
He's only human after all. But they worked it out after taking a short time apart and had an apparently happy life together after that. There are so many other people who ran off with mistresses or other such things, so I'll allow them both this one fight without thinking less of either of them.

 

[FarawayFriend]

I'm glad to hear that they had a happy life together afterwards, although there must have been some quarrels (as in every marriage), because I think Fanny did not always agree with her husband's wanderlust (if I may say so). Not only that he volunteered in the Franco-Prussian war but also, as a 70 year old and apparently not fit for duty because he still suffered from his wound, in 1898 he volunteered when the US declared war on Spain. But again, who of us would like her frail husband to risk what remained of his health and his life and go to war again?
And I totally agree with you, suzenatale, that we should not put their differences in the focus but maybe see how they solved their problems and managed to get on together. That's something we can learn from them for our own benefit.

 

[JPK Huson 1863]

Do you think that's a plausible maybe? I agree, one fight, certainly, does not doom a relationship, but domestic abuse is seldom a one-off thing, especially if PTSD is involved. Our shattered returning servicemen and women have had a heckish time receiving aid for nervous systems re-routed and exploded beyond repair, mental disorders are still inexplicably looked askance upon in 2013. In the 1870's on, it would have been stuffed into some top, dark closet shelf. I'm not arguing the point, what I am saying is that if Fanny was indeed the victim of Domestic Violence, and her husband was dismissing it, or claiming she was lying about it, there's not a lot of liklihood they had an incredibly happy marraige afterward. It's terrifying living with someone when you do not know when they might tip over into rage. PTSD, especially battle induced PTSD induces terribly agressive behavior, and not just a one-off, ' oops' kind of event. One event would not be an ' oops ' anyway, but an assault. Conversly, if she accused him of this and it did not occur, would have been terribly shocking- the men who returned from the war and had fallen apart were numerous. Chamberlain was in the public eye, for this kind of thing to have been out there would have been damaging.

 

[FarawayFriend]

Do you think that's a plausible maybe? I agree, one fight, certainly, does not doom a relationship, but domestic abuse is seldom a one-off thing, especially if PTSD is involved. Our shattered returning servicemen and women have had a heckish time receiving aid for nervous systems re-routed and exploded beyond repair, mental disorders are still inexplicably looked askance upon in 2013. In the 1870's on, it would have been stuffed into some top, dark closet shelf. I'm not arguing the point, what I am saying is that if Fanny was indeed the victim of Domestic Violence, and her husband was dismissing it, or claiming she was lying about it, there's not a lot of liklihood they had an incredibly happy marraige afterward. It's terrifying living with someone when you do not know when they might tip over into rage. PTSD, especially battle induced PTSD induces terribly agressive behavior, and not just a one-off, ' oops' kind of event. One event would not be an ' oops ' anyway, but an assault. Conversly, if she accused him of this and it did not occur, would have been terribly shocking- the men who returned from the war and had fallen apart were numerous. Chamberlain was in the public eye, for this kind of thing to have been out there would have been damaging.

JPK you said what I did not dare to say. Despite suzenatales deeper knowledge, which I do not question in the least, I also have my little doubts if indeed their marriage was one big happy thing afterwards. On the other hand, can you imagine this gentle and affectionate man who valued honor above all to do such things as to abuse his wife?
Hey, let's move in the JLC subforum and start a discussion there! Im curious to know what the others think about that! Or is that too private for us to discuss? (Although we do that already, but in the wrong discussion)

 

[suzenatale]

JPK Huson 1863 has a good point, I can't say I'm an expert on PTSD and so I may not be making an accurate diagnosis when I list it as a possibility.
I wish I had some of Fanny's letters in front of me to offer to you. I am recalling one where she writes her son or daughter and say something to the effect of, your father and I sat down to tea together for the first time in a while and we had a good long talk, it was like the old days when you were a baby.
And I feel like there is one not long after from JLC to one of the kids saying, your mother is letting me back in the house.
If you have Fanny and Joshua in front of you, I'm sure there is a chapter on it in there would be more helpful than my memory. My copy is currently on the other side of the country. It seems no matter what coast I'm on I'm always wishing for a book I have on the other.

 

[FarawayFriend]

If you have Fanny and Joshua in front of you, I'm sure there is a chapter on it in there would be more helpful than my memory. My copy is currently on the other side of the country. It seems no matter what coast I'm on I'm always wishing for a book I have on the other.

Oh yes, I do understand that! That's why I love my Kindle, you can have a lot of books with you wherever you go.

Such a shame, I don't have "Fanny and Joshua" yet! I will have a look at Thomas Deschanels "Chamberlain - a life in letters" though, I hope I can find them there also. Maybe I cannot make it this evening but I'll try hard.
In the meantime, what do you think about moving in the JLC subforum?
I think we do abuse Ellen Ramseur a little bit ...

 

[suzenatale]

Oh yes, I do understand that! That's why I love my Kindle, you can have a lot of books with you wherever you go.

Such a shame, I don't have "Fanny and Joshua" yet! I will have a look at Thomas Deschanels "Chamberlain - a life in letters" though, I hope I can find them there also. Maybe I cannot make it this evening but I'll try hard.
In the meantime, what do you think about moving in the JLC subforum?
I think we do abuse Ellen Ramseur a little bit ...

It's Thomas Desjardin I'm not sure if those letters are in that book or not. But that book would start an interesting discussion on Chamberlain and his cousin. But yes you are right, we are way off topic in this thread.

 

[FarawayFriend]

It's Thomas Desjardin I'm not sure if those letters are in that book or not. But that book would start an interesting discussion on Chamberlain and his cousin. But yes you are right, we are way off topic in this thread.

OOPS, of course you're right!!
Sorry - how embarrassing for a librarian! I thought the name sounded strange but as I'm not at home but still at my desk I did not look it up. The thing I always tell our trainees, ts ts ts.
I think I'll keep my mouth shut for now.

 

[Nathanb1]

Gee, I checked this thread hoping to read more on Ellen Ramseur.

We're gonna have to whack some knuckles with a ruler if we keep getting off on Saint J. and Fanny.

 

[Nathanb1]

Back on topic, ladies.

 

[suzenatale]

Thanks for the Find a Grave link, I'll also put it over on the Find A Grave thread. I've been trying to remember to do that, in case it's helpful for folks browsing here from a Google search, might not think to look both places? If I remember to include this stuff on both threads, better chance of being found, so thanks again!

She is indeed quite pretty, also, for her adult dress, looks terribly young, doesn't she? You do hate to hear of these women spending the rest of their lives alone, yet admire so much what that kind of bond must have been. I mean, who knows, the kind of relationship which would have developed had her husband lived. Given some of the other stories of close bonds which suvived the war, it's a fair bet they would have been happy.

I was thinking how young she looked in that photo too. Any idea of her age in that?