Ebenezer creek

[PartywithArty]

They all share blame but in the time and situation they all had their reasons. We can sit here and say how bad it was, but we weren't there.

i agree. Davis may have felt it was best to leave them behind to protect his men,and Wheeler probably thought if he left the slaves be,they would turn on him or attact them from behind and Sheman attact from the front.Who knows. But nedless to say,what a sad day it was on Ebinezer creek

 

[Sid J.]

Sherman and Davis left the slaves behind for certain death... Forrest "massecured" fort pillow... My point is Sherman is not the angel some around here think he is,he had his faults just like everyone else. HE was wrong fpr the ebinezer creen incedent. Wheeler could have handled it differently,but if you were in Iraq and towns people were teaming up with talaban,then the talaban deserts the towns people,would you command your american troops to over look the towns people?No,you would have them terminated at the same extent in wich you would the talaban. Same rules apply here.Wheeler killed the slaves because they were basicly a "union militia". The equivilant of confederate guerillas. They posed a threat,they were disposed of. over 600 human beeings in wich Davis and Sherman were supposedly fighting to protect,but yet left them for certain death... yes Wheeler was wrong,but Sherman and Davis were just as wrong..

Well, I guess we each stick to our guns. I have not convinced you that leaving refugees on the road is not the same as killing them, and you have not convinced me that abandoning folk is the same as killing them.

 

[PartywithArty]

Well, I guess we each stick to our guns. I have not convinced you that leaving refugees on the road is not the same as killing them, and you have not convinced me that abandoning folk is the same as killing them.

agree to disagree like civilized men?

 

[tmh10]

Well, I guess we each stick to our guns. I have not convinced you that leaving refugees on the road is not the same as killing them, and you have not convinced me that abandoning folk is the same as killing them.

I haven't read that Wheeler killed them. I did read that he may have returned them to slaves, but at that point the end of the war was near and they would have been freed anyway soon. I did read a few drowned in the water trying to follow and that is a tragic event.

 

[Sid J.]

agree to disagree like civilized men?

Not me I'm a knuckle dragger. But not a disagreeable one.

 

[Sid J.]

I haven't read that Wheeler killed them. I did read that he may have returned them to slaves, but at that point the end of the war was near and they would have been freed anyway soon. I did read a few drowned in the water trying to follow and that is a tragic event.

You may be right, I was going with the facts as presented in the article of the OP. I'm sure numbers and conflicting accounts give us a whole nuther set of arguments to have.

 

[PartywithArty]

They all share blame but in the time and situation they all had their reasons. We can sit here and say how bad it was, but we weren't there.

Some were killed by Wheelers men,not as many as some people like to think,most drowned trying to swim. Some were shot in a quick attack,but Wheeler didnt stick around,his men were too buisey trying to find a nother way across the water. The slaves that were left standing were taken prisoner. It was not a horrible slaying that most people think...

 

[tmh10]

You may be right, I was going with the facts as presented in the article of the OP. I'm sure numbers and conflicting accounts give us a whole nuther set of arguments to have.

I think they were more of value alive to the south and from what I can find out they were sent back for return to their masters. A bit murkey but that is what I can find out at this time.

 

[PartywithArty]

I think they were more of value alive to the south and from what I can find out they were sent back for return to their masters. A bit murkey but that is what I can find out at this time.

thats more probable that Wheelers men waiting there time with them. Especially when the march to the sea was their main focus to put a stop to.

 

[unionblue]

Betrayal at Ebenezer Creek.

http://www.historynet.com/betrayal-at-ebenezer-creek.htm

Unionblue

 

[johan_steele]

There is a lot of question of exactly what happened at Ebeneezer Creek, what is not in question is that Davis ordered the pontoons pulled. Even those that supported the freed slaves didn't think any harm would befall those women & children left on the other side of the creek. Then they watched Wheelers Cav charge into the teeming mass of refugees w/ sabres flying and pistols cracking. The kind of charge Cav was supposed to give a routed or disorganized Infantry column... not refugees.

I have no doubt those defending Wheelers men would be furious if these had been white refugees at the tail end of Lee's Army and it was US Cav doing to murdering, but they were not. They were chattel slaves and their lives are not up to the same level of morality & decency as white refugees. Jeff Davis apparently shared that view.

Everytime I see a defence of the actions of Wheeler or Davis at Ebeneezer Creek I'm reminded of everything wrong w/ this country... in 1864 & in 2012.

 

[johan_steele]

thats more probable that Wheelers men waiting there time with them. Especially when the march to the sea was their main focus to put a stop to.

Wheelers wasn't even a speed bump to the March.

 

[johan_steele]

i agree. Davis may have felt it was best to leave them behind to protect his men,and Wheeler probably thought if he left the slaves be,they would turn on him or attact them from behind and Sheman attact from the front.Who knows. But nedless to say,what a sad day it was on Ebinezer creek

Wheeler was concerned about unarmed & unmounted refugees attacking his rear? C'mon try again.

 

[johan_steele]

Sherman and Davis left the slaves behind for certain death... Forrest "massecured" fort pillow... My point is Sherman is not the angel some around here think he is,he had his faults just like everyone else. HE was wrong fpr the ebinezer creen incedent. Wheeler could have handled it differently,but if you were in Iraq and towns people were teaming up with talaban,then the talaban deserts the towns people,would you command your american troops to over look the towns people?No,you would have them terminated at the same extent in wich you would the talaban. Same rules apply here.Wheeler killed the slaves because they were basicly a "union militia". The equivilant of confederate guerillas. They posed a threat,they were disposed of. over 600 human beeings in wich Davis and Sherman were supposedly fighting to protect,but yet left them for certain death... yes Wheeler was wrong,but Sherman and Davis were just as wrong..

You havbe absolutely no idea what you are talking about whether referencing Wheeler or the US Army today.

Women, children, old men & the infirm... all unarmed. That's one heck of a militia and an insulting stretch to call them combatants.

The hypocicy I see here is gross and offensive. It's reprehsible that Sherman's men burned barns, tore up railroads, plantation houses and killed almost no one. But it's admirable (you're defending them) for CS Cav to sweep down and drive black women, children the old & inform into a river killing many hundred... to quote: "How very white of you."

 

[Linda Duff]

They were all morally wrong...but war is not about morals or ethics or any of the more nobler human virtues...it's just about winning at all costs and obviously the refugees were seen as being disposable. Disgusting...but there you have it. No one should be surprised by this...just part of the whole picture.

 

[diane]

Jefferson C Davis probably did want his pontoons back but he knew what he was doing and so did Sherman. Sherman had been unhappy with the increasingly long kite-tail of slave refugees attached to his army and wanted to be rid of them as he began his SC campaign. Even though many of them were the families of men working for his army, and even though the Union armies had encouraged blacks to follow them. Sherman thought there were about 3,000 people in this group. So, when Davis stranded them over the river, it was an ugly thing - they were trapped between the river and Wheeler's cavalry. Wheeler's cavalry were not in a good mood - they were supposed to have stopped Sherman's crossing and arrived too late. Then events took place. There were 200 bodies counted as drowned in the river, and Wheeler's report mentioned 2,000 slaves brought back. That means 800 people are unaccounted for. Some may have run off, but not all 800 of them. I think the death total was closer to 1,000 than 200.

J C Davis had a career after the war which showed his same delicacy. He deported the Russians and their Native wives at Sitka and replaced them with Americans, then finished the Modoc war after Canby was shot. (Leave it to Jack to shoot the sensible one...!) Davis and Nelson Miles replaced men like O O Howard and George Crook, who were reasonable and peace-oriented. The former two were pretty nasty and not apt to talk.

 

[ForeverFree]

I say, a pox on all of them. It was wrong for Davis to not keep the slaves within his lines, if he had the wherewithal to do otherwise - and it's not clear to me that his forces could sustain their support for these poor folk. On the other hand, the alleged acts of the Confederates on (an unknown number of) unarmed women and children are just as reprehensible, if not more so.

My take away is that the road to freedom for these black folks was perilous indeed, and that they don't deserve to be a political football in the partisan battles between Union and Confederacy.

- Alan

 

[Battalion]

Sherman to Halleck 12 January 1865:

"...that ****-and-bull story of my turning back negroes that Wheeler might kill them is all humbug. I turned nobody back. Jeff. C. Davis did at Ebenezer Creek forbid certain plantation slaves- old men, women, and children-to follow his column; but they would come along and he took up his pontoon bridge, not because he wanted to leave them, but because he wanted his bridge.
He and Slocum both tell me they don't believe Wheeler killed one of them...."

http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/pageviewer?frames=1&cite=http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notisid=ANU4519-0099&coll=moa&view=50&root=/moa/waro/waro0099/&tif=00038.TIF&pagenum=36

*

Sherman's Memoirs-

"...On the occasion referred to, the bridge was taken up from Ebenezer Creek while some of the camp-followers remained asleep on the far ther side, and these were picked up by Wheeler's cavalry. Some of them, in their fright, were drowned in trying to swim over, and others may have been cruelly killed by Wheeler's men, but this was a mere supposition...."

http://www.sonshi.com/sherman22.html

*

Wheeler's report, Savannah Campaign, 24 December 1864-

"...On the night December 8 we shelled the camp of the Fourteenth Corps with good effect, throwing the corps into confusion and causing it to leave camp at midnight, abandoning clothing, arms. &c. By breaking up the camp during the extreme darkness a great many negroes were left in our hands, whom we sent back to their owners. We also captured three wagons and teams, and caused the enemy to burn several more wagons. The whole number of negroes captured from the enemy during the movement was nearly 2,000...."

http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/pageviewer?frames=1&cite=http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notisid=ANU4519-0092&coll=moa&view=50&root=/moa/waro/waro0092/&tif=00430.TIF&pagenum=410

 

[K Hale]

So they weren't killed, only returned to slavery.

Now, what happened to runaways once they were returned to their masters?

 

[rpkennedy]

So they weren't killed, only returned to slavery.

Now, what happened to runaways once they were returned to their masters?

As Diane pointed out, it still leaves a large number unaccounted for.

R