Thanks for that info. 1868 still falls within the period when ex-Confederates were moving abroad, so I wonder if any chose to renounce US nationality after that date?
Just a point about your remark that there were "no passports" before the 20th century. There absolutely were, just not in the way we think of them today. A pre-20th century passport was more of a specific document for a given journey, rather than a book you carry around for years getting stamped each time you travel to another country. These documents could include a description of the traveler, where they were from and where they were going, etc. Different countries had their own requirements during the 19th century re: passports. Some didn't require them at all. Some did. For example, here's a quote from The Invention of the Passport: Surveillance, Citizenship and the State by John Torpey (Second Edition, Cambridge University Press):
"In early 1879, the Imperial government imposed passport requirements on those coming from Russia ... Travelers returning to Germany from Russia were now required to have in their possession a passport that had been visaed within three days of their departure by the German embassy in Saint Petersburg or by a German consular official, and visaed again upon their arrival at the German border ... [an] update of the law abolished visa requirements entirely on those returning from Russia, but left the passport requirement intact."
I'm not aware whether the kinds of countries ex-Confederates were traveling to (like Brazil) required them for foreign entrants. But that's one of the reasons I asked about nationality for those Confederate exiles.
Thanks for that info. 1868 still falls within the period when ex-Confederates were moving abroad, so I wonder if any chose to renounce US nationality after that date?
Just a point about your remark that there were "no passports" before the 20th century. There absolutely were, just not in the way we think of them today. A pre-20th century passport was more of a specific document for a given journey, rather than a book you carry around for years getting stamped each time you travel to another country. These documents could include a description of the traveler, where they were from and where they were going, etc. Different countries had their own requirements during the 19th century re: passports. Some didn't require them at all. Some did. For example, here's a quote from The Invention of the Passport: Surveillance, Citizenship and the State by John Torpey (Second Edition, Cambridge University Press):
"In early 1879, the Imperial government imposed passport requirements on those coming from Russia ... Travelers returning to Germany from Russia were now required to have in their possession a passport that had been visaed within three days of their departure by the German embassy in Saint Petersburg or by a German consular official, and visaed again upon their arrival at the German border ... [an] update of the law abolished visa requirements entirely on those returning from Russia, but left the passport requirement intact."
I'm not aware whether the kinds of countries ex-Confederates were traveling to (like Brazil) required passports for foreign entrants. But that's one of the reasons I asked about nationality for those Confederate exiles.
en.wikipedia.org
Per this source the US didn't require passports except during the ACW and not sure how well enforced that was and from 1918 to 1921. US Passports weren't really required until 1941 when very few people who lived during the ACW were alive.
So if an Ex Confederate went pretty much any place in the world it wasn't an issue and he or she didn't require a passport. As a general rule Latin American countries were willing to accept immigrants and indeed most Latin American countries did indeed accept quite a few immigrants especially from Europe and the Middle East during the Nineteenth Century. If an Ex Confederate exile had a bit of money they should have no problem being intergrated into the local communities. Learning Portugese or Spanish isn't terribly difficult if one needs to learn it quick.
Leftyhunter
Thanks for that info. 1868 still falls within the period when ex-Confederates were moving abroad, so I wonder if any chose to renounce US nationality after that date?
Just a point about your remark that there were "no passports" before the 20th century. There absolutely were, just not in the way we think of them today. A pre-20th century passport was more of a specific document for a given journey, rather than a book you carry around for years getting stamped each time you travel to another country. These documents could include a description of the traveler, where they were from and where they were going, etc. Different countries had their own requirements during the 19th century re: passports. Some didn't require them at all. Some did. For example, here's a quote from The Invention of the Passport: Surveillance, Citizenship and the State by John Torpey (Second Edition, Cambridge University Press):
"In early 1879, the Imperial government imposed passport requirements on those coming from Russia ... Travelers returning to Germany from Russia were now required to have in their possession a passport that had been visaed within three days of their departure by the German embassy in Saint Petersburg or by a German consular official, and visaed again upon their arrival at the German border ... [an] update of the law abolished visa requirements entirely on those returning from Russia, but left the passport requirement intact."
I'm not aware whether the kinds of countries ex-Confederates were traveling to (like Brazil) required passports for foreign entrants. But that's one of the reasons I asked about nationality for those Confederate exiles.
So the biggest obstacle for Ex Confederate's to immigrate is financial. Obviously saving Confederate money didn't help. When the war ended Jefferson Davis after he got out of prison was broke and he and his older brother Joseph couldn't even sell their large plantations for a good price and had to self finance the sale of their plantations to an ex slave. When the es slave couldn't make the sale they had to accept a deep discounted price from a white buyer.
Davis himself supported his family by being the president of a life insurance company then by being an author and a popular lecturer. Does who put their assets in land and slaves such has former Lt General Forrest were basically bankrupt after the ACW
Sir, James and Irvine Bulloch did not receive the general amnesty from the federal government after the Civil War so decided to stay in Liverpool. Not sure that made them 'stateless'.
Cheers,
USS ALASKA
For the most part being stateless is more of a Twentieth Century concept. We can't imagine a time or find it difficult to conceive of a time when if you wanted to go or even immigrate you just packed your bags ,bought a passage on a ship and just went.
Leftyhunter
Just because the USA didn't require passports doesn't mean other countries didn't require them from foreign entrants. US law stops at the US border. What if 19th century Brazil required all foreign travellers to have a passport at their border, like in my example from 19th century Germany?
I think we need to know more detail about the immigration laws in some of the countries inhabited by Confederate exiles. Unfortunately, that's far from my area of expertise.
Travel was so much more informal back in the Nineteenth Century yes Brazilian officials could check travel documents but tens of thousands of people many very poor immigrated to Brazil indeed all of Latin America . It's not like today.
Leftyhun
Just because the USA didn't require passports doesn't mean other countries didn't require them from foreign entrants. US law stops at the US border. What if 19th century Brazil required all foreign travellers to have a passport at their border, like in my example from 19th century Germany?
I think we need to know more detail about the immigration laws in some of the countries inhabited by Confederate exiles. Unfortunately, that's far from my area of expertise.
en.wikipedia.org
Approximately 20k Ec Confederate's and their families immigrated to Brazil so no immigration wasn't that difficult in the Nineteenth Century as it would be well over one hundred years latter.
Leftyhunter
Just because the USA didn't require passports doesn't mean other countries didn't require them from foreign entrants. US law stops at the US border. What if 19th century Brazil required all foreign travellers to have a passport at their border, like in my example from 19th century Germany?
I think we need to know more detail about the immigration laws in some of the countries inhabited by Confederate exiles. Unfortunately, that's far from my area of expertise.
en.wikipedia.org
From 1877 to 1903 an average of 71k immigrants about 53% Italians immigrated to Brazil. Said immigrants were hardly wealthy . If an American wanted to immigrate to Brazil no passports required they just went.
I'd like to know what their nationality was recorded as when they arrived. Immigration in the 19th-century may have been more informal than today, but that doesn't mean there weren't border checks and records kept. What nationality were the Confederate immigrants listed as when they arrived in Brazil or elsewhere? US citizen, CS citizen, or something else?
There was no such thing as a Confederate citizen since the Confederacy was never recognized as a nation . There's a fair chance that there was no formal Brazilian immigration procedure untill the Twentieth Century.
Leftyhunte
I'd like to know what their nationality was recorded as when they arrived. Immigration in the 19th-century may have been more informal than today, but that doesn't mean there weren't border checks and records kept. What nationality were the Confederate immigrants listed as when they arrived in Brazil or elsewhere? US citizen, CS citizen, or something else?
Brazil didn't even bother with a Census until 1872 decades after independence from Portugal. Latin American countries in the Nineteenth Century were just very informal about immigration in the Nineteenth Century.
I couldn't say. That's why I opened this thread to ask about this topic.
I think we're over thinking this issue. Has I stated earlier passports were rarely used in the Nineteenth Century. There were no income taxes . Immigration was much more informal in the Americas during the Nineteenth Century. There wasn't that much behind the concept of a " stateless person "post ACW. If anyone didn't like the way things were post ACW such has ex Confederate's then they would go where they thought they would be treated best. If things didn't work out no big deal as they could come back once all the amnesties we're granted which is pretty much by 1868. The whole concept of citizenship and international travel became more complicated by the time most of the people who lived during the ACW were long dead and buried.
Left
There were passports, even in the Civil War. I've found a few examples at Fold3. Of course it was just a document, but you had to swear allegiance (sp) to the US.
There were a few as mentioned but abandoned by the end of the ACW. Basically in the Nineteenth Century even we'll into the Twentieth Century international travel was possible with our a passport . As the links that I provided shows passports weren't common until post WWI when their were few ACW survivors left. Plenty of low income people from Europe and the Middle East arrived in the Americas with no problems. There were not stateless Americans and they could pretty much go to wherever they could afford. Most Ex Confederate's chose Brazil.
Leftyhunter
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