Dahlgren Bayonet

[Para Jim]

Hello Guys,
I bought this Ames Dahlgren Bayonet over here in the UK last week from a dealer who says it is original.
I have looked on line and everything seems to fit. The Manufacturer is square to the ricasso unlike most of the fakes which slope. The release catch spring retaining screw is slightly domes as it should be. It does not have the scrolled DR on the pommel but then somedid not.
It hs been polished but the scabbard is quite firm almost brittle which is common with older leather scabbards if not treated with oil preservative or other leather nourishment treatment.
It was bought by him at auction and three other dealers had travelled a long way to bid on it one having seen it previuosly and attempted to buy it from it's original owner claiming it was a fake to reduce the price. Unfortunately for him the guy he tsaid it to spread the word of what he tried to do. The dealer who attempted to defraud him drove 220 miles to the auction when he found out he was too late to bid by phone and lost it anyway.
Bit long winded fellas but a bit of background to it. Anyone with knowledge of this bayonet please let me hear your views. My main collection is British and Commonwealth and German Bayonets. I have a lot of Worldwide Bayonets which include US.

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

That's a great looking bayonet and interesting story.

The dealer who attempted to defraud him drove 220 miles to the auction when he found out he was too late to bid by phone and lost it anyway.

Karma.

 

[Glen_C]

Sorry but I was suspect before even clicking on the thumbnails.
http://azswords.com/Fake DAHLGREN.htm

I don't claim to be an expert o these but a particular item I take care in examining, as I would be as easily wrong as right.

The typeface is a dead giveaway, as is the forced wear and "restoration". I know British and European often polish items bright but in this case , that only highlights the forced wear. These are distressed and "improved" to fool a buyer.

The first thing that caught my eye in the thumbs is the yellow of the brass. Pay attention also to scabbards and blade grinds.
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?116703-USN-Dahlgren-Civil-War-Bayonet

Just my tuppence

GC

 

[Para Jim]

Sorry but I was suspect before even clicking on the thumbnails.
http://azswords.com/Fake DAHLGREN.htm

I don't claim to be an expert o these but a particular item I take care in examining, as I would be as easily wrong as right.

The typeface is a dead giveaway, as is the forced wear and "restoration". I know British and European often polish items bright but in this case , that only highlights the forced wear. These are distressed and "improved" to fool a buyer.

The first thing that caught my eye in the thumbs is the yellow of the brass. Pay attention also to scabbards and blade grinds.
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?116703-USN-Dahlgren-Civil-War-Bayonet

Just my tuppence

GC

Thanks Glen,
I have tried to research it and have seen conflicting information.
The maker on fakes are normally sloping as in the first link you posted. Mine is square as the later models are and the retaining screw is domed as the original. Polishing removes patina not enhance it. I need someone here who knows this bayonet to have a look in person. Photos are sometimes difficult to examine.
Thanks for your comments anyway.

 

[Glen_C]

Sorry but it is the style of the typeface that does not jive with the history, regardless of how it is angled or straight, or the curved variety. 1862 is a date almost guaranteeing a reproduction and found as well on cavalry and mounted artillery sabers. . This is borne out when reading such books as
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0917218183/?tag=civilwartalkc-20
and
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1877704113/?tag=civilwartalkc-20

Just two of many American references of a dozen others here which pales in comparison to some other's libraries.

Again my first impression is based on the brass more than any other factor. Ames brass is something I am quite familiar with, as I have half a dozen swords over the course of decades. Then seeing the modern typeface, then noting the wrong scabbard. There is an incredible amount of internet data on these as well as extant threads here.

The grinding and damage given to your item and then buffed out only highlights the "antiquing" .

Again I am no authority on this particular item but realize authentic examples traffic in the four figure level and I have seen none less than $2,000 in quite a number of years. The SFI thread linked above just one of several discussions to start more explorations.

Good luck with the knife and I hope more familiar eyes will chime in with more references.

GC

Merry Christmas to all! HUZZAH!!

 

[Package4]

View attachment 117619 View attachment 117620 View attachment 117619 View attachment 117620 Hello Guys,
I bought this Ames Dahlgren Bayonet over here in the UK last week from a dealer who says it is original.
I have looked on line and everything seems to fit. The Manufacturer is square to the ricasso unlike most of the fakes which slope. The release catch spring retaining screw is slightly domes as it should be. It does not have the scrolled DR on the pommel but then somedid not.
It hs been polished but the scabbard is quite firm almost brittle which is common with older leather scabbards if not treated with oil preservative or other leather nourishment treatment.
It was bought by him at auction and three other dealers had travelled a long way to bid on it one having seen it previuosly and attempted to buy it from it's original owner claiming it was a fake to reduce the price. Unfortunately for him the guy he tsaid it to spread the word of what he tried to do. The dealer who attempted to defraud him drove 220 miles to the auction when he found out he was too late to bid by phone and lost it anyway.
Bit long winded fellas but a bit of background to it. Anyone with knowledge of this bayonet please let me hear your views. My main collection is British and Commonwealth and German Bayonets. I have a lot of Worldwide Bayonets which include US.

According to Albert Hardin in The American Bayonet, there were 4 variations of this bayonet and yours unfortunately does not conform to any of the four ( No known originals have the stamping in all capitals, in addition the font is incorrect). This bayonet for whatever reason, is one of the most copied and copies go back into the 1960s acquiring an authenticating patina.

First variant - manufactured in 1861 with the date stamped on ricasso in very small cyphers. No stylized italic "DR" stamped on the pommel. On obverse recess "AMES MFg Co"/"CHICOPEE"/"MASS" in square pattern. The hilt is secured by three brass pins passing vertically thorough the hilt, visible in the leading groove on it's back. The one piece wooden grip is also secured with pins.

Second variant - only difference from the above version is that the hilt is secured with one brass screw visible in leading groove one third of it's length from the cross guard.

Third variant - these are stamped "1862" or "1863" below "U.S.N." and "DR". The letters twice the size used previously. Hilt secured by the screw. There is stylized "DR" in an oval stamped on the pommel.

Fourth variant - dated "1864". General appearance as above, but on the reverse ricasso 3 lines "AMES MFg Co"/"CHICOPEE"/"MASS" form semi oval here. The date is sometimes over stamped with "P", "G.G." or/and anchor. "GG" stands for Commander Guert Gansevoort. The hilt is held by the screw, there is "DR" on the pommel. It weighs 35 oz.

 

[Package4]

What the stamping should look like, this from an identified bayonet that was in the Boston Navy Yard:

 

[Para Jim]

What the stamping should look like, this from an identified bayonet that was in the Boston Navy Yard:

View attachment 117901

Hello mate,
Thanks
for the input. That does not look like stampings but the letters look to be engraved. You can see the guide lines above and beliw the letters as well as thm extendind towrds the adjoining letters.
This is similar to the style used on a cery rare bayonet( Rarer than this) the Pritchard Bayonet. Only 200 ever known to be made and the highest number know in circulation I believe 144. I have Ser No 34.
The fakes are stamped but the origionals are all engraved and follow a similar style to the markings shown here.

 

[Package4]

Y

Hello mate,
Thanks
for the input. That does not look like stampings but the letters look to be engraved. You can see the guide lines above and beliw the letters as well as thm extendind towrds the adjoining letters.
This is similar to the style used on a cery rare bayonet( Rarer than this) the Pritchard Bayonet. Only 200 ever known to be made and the highest number know in circulation I believe 144. I have Ser No 34.
The fakes are stamped but the origionals are all engraved and follow a similar style to the markings shown here.

You have a very enviable collection, please keep us informed of other acquisitions, are you near London? I have a collecting acquaintance there, who comes over every couple of years, to attend the Baltimore (MD) gun show. His collection is outstanding and he is incredibly knowledgeable, his focus is mainly on ACW arms.

 

[Para Jim]

Y

You have a very enviable collection, please keep us informed of other acquisitions, are you near London? I have a collecting acquaintance there, who comes over every couple of years, to attend the Baltimore (MD) gun show. His collection is outstanding and he is incredibly knowledgeable, his focus is mainly on ACW arms.

I live in Kent which borders London. I am in fact a London Police Officer. I have not seen many Dahlgrens on the market here for obvious reasons. The guy I bought this from is a genuine guy who I have done trade with for sometime. He did some research and thought it was ok hence I bought it from him. Once I had it I could do my own reasearch. 3 other dealers went after this in the belief it was ok.
Who is the guy you know from over here?
I deal in Militaria as a sideline from my job as a way of financing my collection. Evrything I sell goes towards buying me a rare German or British Or Commonwealth bayonet or Rifle.
I will post some of my other weapons which include my second Whitworth.

 

[Package4]

I live in Kent which borders London. I am in fact a London Police Officer. I have not seen many Dahlgrens on the market here for obvious reasons. The guy I bought this from is a genuine guy who I have done trade with for sometime. He did some research and thought it was ok hence I bought it from him. Once I had it I could do my own reasearch. 3 other dealers went after this in the belief it was ok.
Who is the guy you know from over here?
I deal in Militaria as a sideline from my job as a way of financing my collection. Evrything I sell goes towards buying me a rare German or British Or Commonwealth bayonet or Rifle.
I will post some of my other weapons which include my second Whitworth.

Patrick Reardon of Reardon Smith Architects

 

[Camp Randall Armory]

I agree, that bayonet is 100% fake.

 

[Para Jim]

I have contacted the seller and I have pointed out everything said here.
I will return the bayonet for a full refund.
Thanks guys!