Cutdown M1840 Springfield with weird initials

[Ethan S.]

This is technically, my very first musket. I was gifted a Springfield M1861 a few years ago, but this is the first one I spent my own money on. It's in rough condition, but I like it. It is 1843 dated. I'm confused as to why a perfectly good musket was cutdown, and what's up with the initials though. Excuse the backdrop, I don't have any yankee backdrops.

 

[scooter748driver]

I really am not sure, but I would speculate that it was cut down post war to be used for hunting and the like. The initials/letters might be remaining from the war. Lots of soldiers on both sides carved their initials into stocks.

 

[Craig L Barry]

I think that's a .69 US 1835/40 flintlock converted to percussion. This was the direct predecessor to the US 1842 smoothbore musket. I believe these were the last armory produced US military flintlocks. And most of them ended up converted to percussion like this one.

 

[R. Porter]

Based on my limited reading and possible misunderstanding I believe that the federal government produced flintlock firearms into the 1840's. By that time it must have become obvious that percussion lock systems were the wave of the future. I think the federal government sent word to their armories to review their stockpiles of firearms and divide them into groups. One group was for guns that just weren't worth trying to upgrade and another group would have been for those to be converted to percussion lock. I think there were other groups too but I don't remember right off-hand.

There were a number of ways to convert to percussion but the most popular way was the cone-in-barrel approach. I think this was also called the Belgian method and seems to have been the method of choice by the U.S. armories. This caused to hole in the side of the barrel to allow the flame from the powder in the flintlock to pass into the powder in the barrel to be plugged up and a new hole drilled further up the barrel toward the top. The new hole was threaded allowing a cone that would hold the nipple to be screwed into the barrel. A percussion hammer that was somewhat curved so that it would hit the nipple was also installed. Your musket shows where the flintlock parts were removed and the exposed holes filled. The original hole in the barrel would have been in the part surrounded by the brass remains of the pan. The hole was made toward the top of the barrel for the cone to be screwed into and the nipple was screwed into the cone. Unlike most percussion hammers, yours curves over the stock and barrel so that it hits the nipple squarely.

So the good muskets were converted in the U.S. armories and the not so good ones were sold at auction. Those who bought them tried to resell these guns to anyone who would buy. That included foreign nations that were looking for cheap sources of arms and civilians who wanted a gun for around the farm. Those sold to civilians seem to have undergone conversion to shotguns by having their barrel shortened and forestock removed. This also made them lighter and more handy on horseback so they were sold to pioneers traveling west and Native Americans who hunted buffalo on horseback. Undoubtedly some of these were converted to percussion lock, others remained flintlock. Native Americans preferred flintlock guns late into the 19th​ century because it was easier to make new gun flints than to obtain percussion caps in the wilderness. Farmers who had access to sources of percussion caps may well have had theirs converted privately if they were purchased as flintlocks. The remains of the brass pan on your gun look a little rough compared to other examples I have seen so perhaps yours was sold out of service as a flintlock and then privately converted. Of course a number of these guns were in the armories of the states and they may have sold some out of service or there may have been a panic to convert them as war started to seem more likely.

Would the various armories have cut down the barrels and removed forestocks as part of a preparation for war? While it seems like a way to create cavalry carbines quickly and cheaply, I don't know. If there was a call for men who would bring their own firearms would that include surplus military firearms that had been converted to sporting weapons, you betcha! I only say this because if you look at enough trophy displays from the sanitary fairs during the late part of the war you will see them. I've also seen what looks like a French model 1831 infantry briquet (not a Confederate one, a French one; but I can't be positive.)

Of course yours could always be one that went home with its soldier (either north or south) after his service. Or it could have been traded to the Indians or found work on the frontier or any number of other scenarios. Many of these converted to percussion weapons were sold out of service after the Civil War. There may be ways to narrow it down and I think the way it was converted to caplock might point you in the right direction. Let me also say that I am hardly an expert so my information may be wildly off the mark and you should check other sources too. There is a three volume set of books on flintlock military firearms of the U.S., I forget the title and author, that you should find helpful.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

I've got a Craftsman drill given to me about 49 years ago. It only turns in one direction - it was made before hand power drills with "reverse" were marketed. So it is out of date, but still usable - I can drill a hole with it and with a Phillips screw driver bit in it, it can be used to screw in a Phillips screw, but I can't use it to remove that screw!
I don't throw it away.
I don't keep it for everyday use.

These old muzzle loading arms were usable but out of date soon after the Civil War.

They were usable, and cheap.

So tens of thousands of them were kept to use around the farm or house.

I once had one that was kept outside on the covered porch of a farmhouse, near to hand if a fox showed up at the chicken coop, but worth so little that if stolen, no big loss.

I once unloaded a complete musket which was loaded with powder and a wrap of newspaper - dated 1923 - containing bird-shot! We today might target shoot with a civil war musket, but not with birdshot - this was loaded for some civilian use in 1923 or later, although the musket was out of date and obsolete.

Folks wanted a lighter, shorter arm to use, and so they just took the hacksaw to the barrel and the stock to made a tool that could be used.

You will find collectors like to find the exceptions to a general rule; there were a few cut shorted during the Civil War, but not so crudely as yours.

 

[Lanyard Puller]

Ethan,
If possible, you may want to venture up to Cincinnati to Cowans Auction. Oct 25 is "viewing day" when all the items for the auction can be examined. The 26th will be the auction.

Bring a notebook and camera. You'll meet lots of long-time collectors.
Knowledge is power in the collecting game, and every bit helps!

 

[Ethan S.]

From Mike O'Donnels Gettysburg Artifact book.

 

[R. Porter]

Notice that the Gettysburg gun was not converted by the cone-in-barrel method used by the armories. I skimmed through volume 3 of American Military Shoulder Arms by George D. Moller where he covers conversions conversions from flintlock to caplock but didn't find an exact match for the Gettysburg gun. The lock plate on that one looks more like a model 1841 but it doesn't have the patch box on the stock that the '41 has.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

Notice that the Gettysburg gun was not converted by the cone-in-barrel method used by the armories. I skimmed through volume 3 of American Military Shoulder Arms by George D. Moller where he covers conversions conversions from flintlock to caplock but didn't find an exact match for the Gettysburg gun. The lock plate on that one looks more like a model 1841 but it doesn't have the patch box on the stock that the '41 has.

As the caption for the Gettysburg gun says, it is a cut down Model 1842, a model made as a percussion arm, and so not a conversion.
The Model 1842 was still widely used by both sides of that 1863 battle, in original 3-band long barrel, full stock form and not modified. This example was crudely cut back, and not the product of any "real" gunsmithing.
Just because an item is painted with the name of a place and has been in a collection or museum for many years or is listed in a book doesn't rule out the possibility that it was mislabeled along its history.
And an item that was really collected at a particular place could have been modified afterward, and only later donated or collected (in modified form) some decades later.
There is also the possibility that an item was one of those hauled by the wagonload from various places to Gettysburg for sale to tourists in the years after the War.

 

[R. Porter]

Yep, I took a closer look at the table of contents of my reference and it has a chapter headed, "Model 1842 Percussion Musket." It does have sub-headings for South Carolina contract and Palmetto Armory musket and rifle. I suppose that it is more likely that the cut-down took place after the war. All of your comments are food for thought and remind us to challenge what we know because it may not be correct. That being said, I'm still pretty sure that I've seen a cut-dow musket on a trophy display in a picture from one of the sanitary commission fairs which would suggest that some cut down musket were used somewhere during the war.

 

[RedRover]

As the caption for the Gettysburg gun says, it is a cut down Model 1842, a model made as a percussion arm, and so not a conversion.
The Model 1842 was still widely used by both sides of that 1863 battle, in original 3-band long barrel, full stock form and not modified. This example was crudely cut back, and not the product of any "real" gunsmithing.
Just because an item is painted with the name of a place and has been in a collection or museum for many years or is listed in a book doesn't rule out the possibility that it was mislabeled along its history.
And an item that was really collected at a particular place could have been modified afterward, and only later donated or collected (in modified form) some decades later.
There is also the possibility that an item was one of those hauled by the wagonload from various places to Gettysburg for sale to tourists in the years after the War.

And even were its provenance correct, it does not mean that whomever picked it up on the battlefield did not then modify it as shown...

 

[RedRover]

From the Northfield Minnesota incident of 1876:

 

[limberbox]

Knott describes in Captured and Collected, Confederate Reissued Firearms that the Confederate Ordnance Department's Cleaning & Repair facilities would sometimes cut down a musket damaged at the muzzle to salvage a carbine out of it. Confederate Ordnance-cleaned & repaired or modified guns are believed to have a capital A, F, Q, T or Z (and possibly other yet undiscovered letters) stamped into their underside behind the trigger guard after reinspection and before reissuance. Does yours have such a stamp?

But as Jeff from Ohio said (and as earlier posts on this forum have described in more detail), many hundreds of thousands of guns were sold off as surplus after the war. Many were purchased by gun dealers who then "sporterized" them by shortening the barrel and forestock, often reaming them smooth and then reselling them as inexpensive shotguns or fowlers. Doubtless those modifications were also performed by farmers and other individuals. That appears the most likely explanation.

 

[Ethan S.]

Knott describes in Captured and Collected, Confederate Reissued Firearms that the Confederate Ordnance Department's Cleaning & Repair facilities would sometimes cut down a musket damaged at the muzzle to salvage a carbine out of it. Confederate Ordnance-cleaned & repaired or modified guns are believed to have a capital A, F, Q, T or Z (and possibly other yet undiscovered letters) stamped into their underside behind the trigger guard after reinspection and before reissuance. Does yours have such a stamp?

But as Jeff from Ohio said (and as earlier posts on this forum have described in more detail), many hundreds of thousands of guns were sold off as surplus after the war. Many were purchased by gun dealers who then "sporterized" them by shortening the barrel and forestock, often reaming them smooth and then reselling them as inexpensive shotguns or fowlers. Doubtless those modifications were also performed by farmers and other individuals. That appears the most likely explanation.

Mine doesn't have a stamp, so it doesn't appear to be CS reissued, at least nothing verifiable. I thought the Rebels cutdown some muskets to use for cavalry, but wasn't too sure. I need some musket related reading material, because I'd like to start collecting a few.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

Mine doesn't have a stamp, so it doesn't appear to be CS reissued, at least nothing verifiable. I thought the Rebels cutdown some muskets to use for cavalry, but wasn't too sure. I need some musket related reading material, because I'd like to start collecting a few.

If "professionally" made into a cheap shotgun after the War by being cut down, it should have a nicely shaped foreend, and a bead sight at the end of the barrel.
This looks like a farmer with a hacksaw did the work.
I once owned an Enfield with confederate viewer mark (done in Britian before it was shipped over here), with full length barrel, but the wood stock chopped short with an axe or hatchet! This was done without take the stock off, so the chop marks are on the metal as well as the wood. Just a half dozen strokes, and that extra wood was gone!

 

[Cornpone and Molasses]

From the Northfield Minnesota incident of 1876:

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Dang it! It was just getting' good lol.

 

[Story]

From the Northfield Minnesota incident of 1876:

View attachment 455715
View attachment 455716

Next page! Next page!!

 

[RedRover]

Next page! Next page!!

Here it is...

The whole story is here:
Quarterly Review: Google Books

 

[Story]

It's posts like these that are worthy of

Also illustrates how old weapons can remain lethal in the hands of a determined shooter.

 

[R. Porter]

There is an article online dated September 6, 2015, by the Pioneer Press titled, "Gun used to kill bandit in famed 1876 raid returns to Northfield." Apparently there is also a watch given to him by one of the banks and a pistol he carried after the incident. You have to supply an e-mail address to get access to the whole article. The gun does not appear to be a cut-down musket but instead a breech-loading Smith Carbine.

Gun used to kill bandit in famed 1876 raid returns to Northfield

NORTHFIELD, Minn. — The rifle used by Henry Wheeler, a pioneer physician, to kill a member of the James-Younger Gang and injure another during the Northfield Bank Robbery in 1876 now is on permanent display in Northfield.

www.twincities.com

There is a photographic portrait of Henry Wheeler seated and holding a fur hat in one of his hands at this link:

Portrait of Henry Wheeler Sr.

Portrait of Henry Wheeler Sr. seated in a chair wearing a suit. Arm resting on a small table, other hand holding a hat. Sepia-toned photograph with mark that appears to be from tape at the top.

contentdm.carleton.edu

There are a number of images on a flicker account including the carbine, Cole Younger's pistol and belt rig. It's a Moore Revolver, the belt is black leather army surplus with a rectangular eagle plate and black leather holster.

Smith Carbine at:

https://flic.kr/p/NpRTWJ

.32 cal. rim fire single action model 1860 Moore revolver at:

https://flic.kr/p/NwYKTh