Culps Hill

[Hoplite]

So watching Gettysburg (I know, I know) on July 1 & 2nd as is our tradition. Obviously based on historical fiction and does not really give you much of a view of the entire battlefield- only Buford/Reynolds 1st day and then Chamberlain and Little Round Top- second day, and Pickett's charge 3rd day.

I understand the fascination with Little Round Top and Chamberlain- he apparently was a good PR guy as regards his fight there, and that I suppose went a long way in formulating people's opinion of the battle.

I have long said that yes taking Little Round Top would have been a coup for the Rebs, but hardly the turning point or even a breaking point for the Yanks. They could have maybe crammed a couple batteries (theirs were only 4 guys- Haslett had trouble with his 6) up there, but what would that have accomplished, Cemetary Ridge was a bit far and those guns would not have driven the Yanks off the ground.

Culps HIll to me is a more interesting what if. Ewell occupying it on July 1st would have conceivably changed the course of the battle, maybe even led to the Union not fighting there July 2nd. We all know about Trimble's remarks- don't know it they are historical hyperbole or not, but I think it the more important terrain feature. Lee always talked about those two hills to the west of town (Cemetary and Culps).

So I think that Pap Greene's defense of Culps HIll on the 2nd might be more important, or certainly as important as Chamberlain on LIttle Round top.

 

[infomanpa]

A lot of people share your view. You are in good company.

 

[1st New Jersey Brigade]

Culps Hill and East Cemetery Hill is where the Federal army was saved. During a tour with a Gettysburg Battlefield guide 2 years ago, he pointed out, if I remember correctly, that the federal troops on Culps hill alone fired over 1 million rounds. Little Round Top was a snooze fest compared to the other end of the field.

 

[eBrowne]

East Cemetery Hill was not seriously threatened. Yes, the Union line broke, but without major reinforcements, the Southern troops were not going to dislodge the Union forces. It was a futile attempt. Culp's Hill was another matter. That was a serious engagement that had major ramifications for the whole battle of Gettysburg.

 

[1st New Jersey Brigade]

East Cemetery Hill was not seriously threatened. Yes, the Union line broke, but without major reinforcements, the Southern troops were not going to dislodge the Union forces. It was a futile attempt. Culp's Hill was another matter. That was a serious engagement that had major ramifications for the whole battle of Gettysburg.

Why do you say it was not seriously threatened? Without federal reinforcements the rebs would have made a mess out of the situation.

 

[eBrowne]

There were plenty of Union troops nearby. This was near the center of the Union line. It was easy to reinforce. The attack occurred at dusk so there was no time for the South to exploit their success. Without major reinforcements, the South could not hold their position. Their only option was to retreat which they did. It was a poorly conceived attack.

 

[lupaglupa]

We watched it too! A lot of things are left out or mentioned in passing - but just imagine how much longer the film would have been if it had covered everything!

 

[nc native]

So watching Gettysburg (I know, I know) on July 1 & 2nd as is our tradition. Obviously based on historical fiction and does not really give you much of a view of the entire battlefield- only Buford/Reynolds 1st day and then Chamberlain and Little Round Top- second day, and Pickett's charge 3rd day.

I understand the fascination with Little Round Top and Chamberlain- he apparently was a good PR guy as regards his fight there, and that I suppose went a long way in formulating people's opinion of the battle.

I have long said that yes taking Little Round Top would have been a coup for the Rebs, but hardly the turning point or even a breaking point for the Yanks. They could have maybe crammed a couple batteries (theirs were only 4 guys- Haslett had trouble with his 6) up there, but what would that have accomplished, Cemetary Ridge was a bit far and those guns would not have driven the Yanks off the ground.

Culps HIll to me is a more interesting what if. Ewell occupying it on July 1st would have conceivably changed the course of the battle, maybe even led to the Union not fighting there July 2nd. We all know about Trimble's remarks- don't know it they are historical hyperbole or not, but I think it the more important terrain feature. Lee always talked about those two hills to the west of town (Cemetary and Culps).

So I think that Pap Greene's defense of Culps HIll on the 2nd might be more important, or certainly as important as Chamberlain on LIttle Round top.

I agree with you in believing that the defense of Culp's Hill may have been more important than Little Round Top. The Confederates came very close to capturing Culp's Hill and had they done so, they would have removed the last natural impediment preventing them from cutting the Baltimore Pike which was the main artery that fed the Union forces during the battle of Gettysburg. The Confederates came perilously close to cutting the pike during the night attack on July 2nd and the Union was fortunate that darkness prevented them from realizing they were so close to it. The Union was also fortunate that George S. Greene realized how important Culp's Hill was and was an expert at preparing fixed defenses to fortify it.

 

[WScott]

I think the Union owes General George Sears Greene and his New Yor troops more than a debt of gratitude for saving the Army of Potomac on July 2nd. His insistence that his troops prepare a strong defensive position, with fortifications, atop Culps Hill prevented the confederates from taking that position. The outcome of the battle might have been very different if it weren't for George.

 

[Jim Heen]

I think both Little Round Top and Culp's Hill were critical to the Union at Gettysburg. I think the loss of either makes Meade's Cemetery Ridge position untenable (Harry Pfanz in his Gettysburg, the Second Day, wrote of Little Round Top, "Once the Confederates held the hill, artillery or not, the Cemetery Ridge line would have to be abandoned. It's as simple as that."). I also agree that Greene's defense of Culp's Hill is one of the most important actions by any Union officer during the battle. But I prefer not to compare who is better than whom. Why not Warren? But for him, Strong Vincent is not on Little Round Top and the 140th NY does not arrive in the nick of time to secure Vincent's right flank. And there are lots of other candidates. They all performed heroically.

Prior to COVID, I attended ALBG weekend seminars every year and they are great. However, because of the popularity of the Gettysburg movie, many of the guides got tired of hearing about Chamberlain to the point where they began to actively dislike him. 20 years after the movie, I was at a Gettysburg ALBG seminar on Pickett's Charge and one guide went out of his way to disparage Chamberlain and even pretended to put his finger down his throat at the mere mention of Chamberlain's name. I thought that was uncalled for. And why bring in Chamberlain at all since it was a Day 3 seminar, not Day 2.

I have also noticed an anti-Chamberlain bias among many Civil War scholars in general - probably for the same reason. Some years ago, William Marvel wrote an article in a publication claiming that it was a myth that Joshua Chamberlain received the Confederate surrender at Appomattox. I went to Appomattox shortly thereafter and on entering the park, the Park Service gave all visitors a short handout disputing this account and saying that Chamberlain did, in fact, receive the surrender.

But back to your point, I have great admiration for Greene and his defense of Culp's Hill. And as others have indicated, thanks to a lot of Civil War books and articles over the past 30 years, Greene is no longer an unsung hero. Maybe he'll even get his own movie some day.

 

[eBrowne]

Little Round Top was not the initial objective of the Southern attack of July 2. To seize and hold that position required planning, reinforcements and logistics...none of which the South had/did. LRT is a poor artillery position to threaten Union troops to the north. LRT is a wooded and rocky hill that runs North/South. The few cannon that the South could have positioned there would have been firing over one another. The Taneytown Road is nearby as are Union reinforcements. The Southern forces would not have held LRT for long. In this regard, if Chamberlain had been driven off LRT, it was probably irrelevant as the Southern troops were not going to be able to hold that position for long.
The attack on Culp's Hill was a more organized and serious battle. However, it was also probably a flawed Southern attack. The Union could array a massive artillery line fronting Culp's Hill if the South had captured it (in fact the Union did just that- the Baltimore Pike line). What artillery and artillery position were the Southern troops going to use? The Union had reinforcements. Was Lee really going to move enough troops around the Union line and supply them there? The Southern troops on Culp's Hill were in a dangerous position. Union cavalry are in their rear. Rock Creek and the bottleneck of Gettysburg hinder their line of retreat. The bulk of the Union army is nearby, as are its supplies. The only hope of the Southern forces was that Meade blundered and withdrew.

 

[Hoplite]

Little Round Top was not the initial objective of the Southern attack of July 2. To seize and hold that position required planning, reinforcements and logistics...none of which the South had/did. LRT is a poor artillery position to threaten Union troops to the north. LRT is a wooded and rocky hill that runs North/South. The few cannon that the South could have positioned there would have been firing over one another. The Taneytown Road is nearby as are Union reinforcements. The Southern forces would not have held LRT for long. In this regard, if Chamberlain had been driven off LRT, it was probably irrelevant as the Southern troops were not going to be able to hold that position for long.
The attack on Culp's Hill was a more organized and serious battle. However, it was also probably a flawed Southern attack. The Union could array a massive artillery line fronting Culp's Hill if the South had captured it (in fact the Union did just that- the Baltimore Pike line). What artillery and artillery position were the Southern troops going to use? The Union had reinforcements. Was Lee really going to move enough troops around the Union line and supply them there? The Southern troops on Culp's Hill were in a dangerous position. Union cavalry are in their rear. Rock Creek and the bottleneck of Gettysburg hinder their line of retreat. The bulk of the Union army is nearby, as are its supplies. The only hope of the Southern forces was that Meade blundered and withdrew.

Everything of course is speculation, what if. While indeed it would have been difficult if not impossible for the South to hold LRT- due to the ability of the union to reinforce- from Baltimore Pike Area- V & VI Corps come to mind, the same could be said for Culps Hill. You would have had XII Corps right there, Union Cavalry and ultimately VI Corps when it comes up- a dangerous position indeed.

You comment about Meade blundering rings true. I think for me the easiest way to synopsize Gettysburg is that the South did pretty much everything wrong they could have, and for the first time almost all their officers had bad days. The Union- exactly the opposite.

 

[WScott]

I think Lee overextended his army by trying to attack both ends of Meades hook (Culps Hill & Little Round Top). With fewer troops and lengthen lines of frontage Lee could not concentrate enough troops at any given point to be fully effective. I think Lee's success on the first clouded his view of what he could actually accomplish on July 2nd & 3rd. Lee didn't have Jackson nor Jeb Stuart when needed most.

 

[eBrowne]

I think Scott's statement plus the rest of this thread points to the conclusion that Longstreet was right. Either don't attack or attack on the right. There you have a shorter more direct supply line, you are covering your line of retreat, and you can mass your forces.

 

[SJU5]

I think the Union owes General George Sears Greene and his New Yor troops more than a debt of gratitude for saving the Army of Potomac on July 2nd. His insistence that his troops prepare a strong defensive position, with fortifications, atop Culps Hill prevented the confederates from taking that position. The outcome of the battle might have been very different if it weren't for George. View attachment 445246

Should have been awarded the Medal of Honor for his actions on Culps Hill. Difficult to believe that so many agree that Culps Hill being so important and not one MOH was awarded for their actions. Not one from the whole Xll Corps.

 

[Hoplite]

Should have been awarded the Medal of Honor for his actions on Culps Hill. Difficult to believe that so many agree that Culps Hill being so important and not one MOH was awarded for their actions. Not one from the whole Xll Corps.

Well it was and still is to some extent all about PR and especially back then your connections.
If you campaigned for yourself, had friends who owned newspapers or were politically connected that helped.
Look at the rehab job Sickles did!
I would point to another head scratching MOH winner from Gettysburg- General Shayler. I don't think he or his brigade even fought or if they did briefly. Explain his MOH except in terms I outlined above!

 

[Hoplite]

Well it was and still is to some extent all about PR and especially back then your connections.
If you campaigned for yourself, had friends who owned newspapers or were politically connected that helped.
Look at the rehab job Sickles did!
I would point to another head scratching MOH winner from Gettysburg- General Shayler. I don't think he or his brigade even fought or if they did briefly. Explain his MOH except in terms I outlined above!

Sorry I it is Shaler- Alexander Shaler. Fascinated by this as he is buried in a quiet, small cemetery not too far from my house, with a obelisk marker. Apparently part of the political machine in NYC but was forced to leave for 'improprieties' and settled across the river in New Jersey.

 

[Jim Heen]

I looked up Gen. Alexander Shaler in Warner's Generals in Blue. Shaler was awarded his MOH for successfully storming Mayre's Heights at Fredericksburg during the Chancellorsville campaign. He was mustered out of the service in August 1865, though Warner does not comment further on his mustering out.

You are right that Shaler's brigade seeing little fighting at Gettysburg. In checking the indexes of several Gettysburg books, the only one I found that really comments on Shaler is Pfanz's Gettysburg: Culp's Hill and Cemetery Hill. It seems Shaler's brigade spent much of the battle in reserve near Culp's Hill. After Johnson's third attack the morning of July 3, Shaler's brigade was briefly called up but the only regiment to see significant fighting was the the 122nd NY which was sent across a hollow to the front line breastworks where they sustained 44 casualties - most of which occurred while crossing the hollow.

 

[Hoplite]

I looked up Gen. Alexander Shaler in Warner's Generals in Blue. Shaler was awarded his MOH for successfully storming Mayre's Heights at Fredericksburg during the Chancellorsville campaign. He was mustered out of the service in August 1865, though Warner does not comment further on his mustering out.

You are right that Shaler's brigade seeing little fighting at Gettysburg. In checking the indexes of several Gettysburg books, the only one I found that really comments on Shaler is Pfanz's Gettysburg: Culp's Hill and Cemetery Hill. It seems Shaler's brigade spent much of the battle in reserve near Culp's Hill. After Johnson's third attack the morning of July 3, Shaler's brigade was briefly called up but the only regiment to see significant fighting was the the 122nd NY which was sent across a hollow to the front line breastworks where they sustained 44 casualties - most of which occurred while crossing the hollow.

Thank you I stand corrected!
Be it Fredericksburg or Gettysburg I know I remember reading that people were mystified by him getting the CMH.

 

[Hoplite]

I looked up Gen. Alexander Shaler in Warner's Generals in Blue. Shaler was awarded his MOH for successfully storming Mayre's Heights at Fredericksburg during the Chancellorsville campaign. He was mustered out of the service in August 1865, though Warner does not comment further on his mustering out.

You are right that Shaler's brigade seeing little fighting at Gettysburg. In checking the indexes of several Gettysburg books, the only one I found that really comments on Shaler is Pfanz's Gettysburg: Culp's Hill and Cemetery Hill. It seems Shaler's brigade spent much of the battle in reserve near Culp's Hill. After Johnson's third attack the morning of July 3, Shaler's brigade was briefly called up but the only regiment to see significant fighting was the the 122nd NY which was sent across a hollow to the front line breastworks where they sustained 44 casualties - most of which occurred while crossing the hollow.

I looked him up in Tagg's Generals of Gettysburg and it says that his brigade was held in reserve at Antietam and Fredericksburg, so getting a CMH for assaulting Marye's Heights, well...............
Goes on to say: about his CMH 'for no reason readily apparent in the historical record, he was awarded the CMH'

Obviously political and he was heavily involved in NYC politics with 'problems'- which ultimately saw him leaving for New Jersey!

Speaking of the political angle, he got the brigade after the resignation of John Cochrane of the get Burnside fame.