Could the South have won?

first off a free book is always nice:smile: and its certainly in line with MCPherson ( Crossroads of Freedom) 3 places where the outcome could have changed. And i feel there is too much determnilism spoken off about the conflicit, those at the time never had the same certainty of the outcome till late 64. So thought sharing it was worthwhile.
 
first off a free book is always nice:smile: and its certainly in line with MCPherson ( Crossroads of Freedom) 3 places where the outcome could have changed. And i feel there is too much determnilism spoken off about the conflicit, those at the time never had the same certainty of the outcome till late 64. So thought sharing it was worthwhile.

For the Southern people, as long as Lee and his army were in the field, there was still hope. But looking back, it's clear that the war was over but for the noise with Lincoln's reelection in 1864.

R
 
Hmmm. I've always thought that the South's real hope was the offensive and that in Virginia. Lee was of that mind, I believe. He knew that for the Confederacy to stand in place and defend, absent outside intervention, the north would eventually prevail. His goal was the annihilation of the AoP in the open field - the reason for his gambles at Gettysburg.

Beating them on successive battlefields (Manassas, Fredericksburg, Chancellorsville) without destroying them was joyfully bankrupt. It was visibly all downhill from Gettysburg for the AoV.

But almost invisibly (though not in retrospective) it was Antietam and the Emancipation Declaration that sealed the Confederacy's fate. Intervention by the British government was by that battle and that act together made next to impossible. The French could agitate as much as they wished - Parliament in London was already lost to the rebels.

IMO of course.
 
Yes, they could have if everything had turned out differently. The odds of that happening were about 0.
They could have won in the same way the Colonies won their war of independence from Britain, foreign recognition and foreign assistance in the way of an alliance. So aided they could have dragged out the hostilities until the North, tired of an interminable conflict (like Britain in the 1780's) threw in the towel and granted independence. The odds of that happening were a lot greater than zero.
 
Could the South have won?

Yes, they almost did. I'll need to read the link. Welcome to CivilWarTalk.
 
Many have pointed out that the South's defeat was inevitable because of the massive amount of resources that the North could mobilize. I partly disagree. The Confederacy's best shot at winning independence would have been a quick and short war that would have negated the ultimate Northern superiority in men and material. If the Confederacy was able to win battlefield victories in, say the first year to year and one-half of the war, it could have prevailed, given that the North needed time to organize and muster its resources for the long haul. The longer the war dragged on, the massive Northern infrastructure of men and material started to make a difference.
 
I'd think the South's best chances would have been 1) immediately after First Bull Run, 2) had the 1862 Maryland Campaign turned out a little different, that would have been a chance for France/England to side with the South and thus bring in the needed resources, and lastly 3) if battle results had been different leading up to the election of 1864 and Lincoln was not re-elected.

But...rather than dwell on the could haves, lets focus on what we can learn from this hideous event
 
What are the sources of a possible victory for the CSA?

1). Maryland, Missouri and Kentucky secede. Missouri was contested for most of the war, but the Union maintained dominance. Kentucky and Maryland were effectively in the Union column by early 1862. Given Lincoln's caution in not giving them a major reason to secede and their economic ties to the Union, the chance looks like slim to none.

2). Foreign intervention. Essentially, this means Great Britain. Lincoln was careful with them. Great Britain did not have a major reason to intervene. Finally, the emancipation proclaimation made intervention by Britain nearly impossible. This avenue of victory looks very low also,

3). Military victory. This meant destroying a major Union army or two. The CSA came closest at Chickamauga but failed even there. CW armies took quite a bit to destroy. It really never happened on the battlefield. It came close at Pea Ridge and Nashville but even there the remnants escaped.

The other chance was a successful invasion of the North. Given the difficulty the Union had invading the CSA with much greater resources and organization, this looks pretty low. I would say a military victory is pretty low also.

4). By the end of 1863, the CSA could no longer credibly won a military victory. However, for Lincoln to be elected in 1864, the Union had to show decisive progress towards winning a military victory. Election of a democrat probably meant a negotiated peace. This was by far the biggest chance. It hinges on two possibilities. First off would enough Union veterans reenlist to keep the core of the Union armies? Grant and Sherman both put a major effort in encouraging reenlistment and it worked.

The second was would Grant and Sherman both push hard for victory? Many Union generals were slow to start and quick to give up. If either got the slows, the other would face almost insurmountable odds. The thing was they pushed onto victory. Sure it looked bad in August 1864 but after that Sheridan destroyed Early's army in the valley. Farragut took Mobile Bay, Sherman took Atlanta and Grant pinned Lee at Petersburg.

It became obvious that the Union was at the verge of victory and Lincoln was elected again.

The chance of Grant and or Sherman faltering or Lincoln ceasing to support them can not be calculated. Given Union resolve and competency, they would do enough to win the election in 1864.

In my mind, the chances of victory for the CSA Look highest by hanging on without major Union victories in 1864.

The problem is it looks as if given political skill from Lincoln, Union resolve, and competent persistence by Grant and Sherman, Union victory now looks nearly inevitable. But relying on three men to perform is rather dicey. Of course, had Grant or Sherman faltered perhaps Meade or Thomas would have come through.

It is not popular for Union adherents to admit that victory was that dependent on performance from key people.. It is also not popular among CSA fans to admit that given Union leadership coming through, their cause would be a long shot. They kind of seem to like to think that only a few CSA generals like Lee and Jackson could perform.
 
I did refer to "everything" turning out differently - not just one thing. See my second post above.
Right you are. My apologies, sergeant, for not picking up that, as you stated, a lot of things would have had to go right for the South to win. In the Revolution, French intervention and Dutch and Spanish support were not sufficient to win independence unless the Continental Army remained a salient factor.
 
I think the Confederacy was a pretty heavy favorite at the outset. I think it actually took a bunch of unlikely occurrences and accomplishments for the Union to pull off the victory that it did. Forcing well armed, well led, passionately rebellious states to stay in the Union was a much longer shot that the Confederacy's goal of convincing the fractious northern people to just let them be independent. Lincoln pulled off the biggest political miracle this country has ever seen in winning that war and yet somehow it becomes "inevitable?" That's not inevitability. That's hindsight.
 
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