confederate officer jacket ?

[18thmississippi]

Hello all,
My question is what kind of jacket did most confederate field grade officers in the ANV wear "in the field"? To be more specific, Florida officers in 1863. Now i know we have all seen the fancy double breasted frock coats in either photos or museums, but after doing a little research and talking to other people im hearing more and more about the officers wearing either a civilian type jacket or a private purchased shell/sack coat with only small gold bars on the collar to show rank. To me it would make more sense for them to wear a sack instead of the frock for numerous reasons. one the frock was a dress uniform, a sack had more pockets to help store all the paperwork he has to do, a sack or shell would have been less expensive to have made and there's more existing examples of the frock than the other which means they probably did not see much field usage. so if anyone has some fact based knowledge that would like to share with me and shed some light on this subject i would be most great full.

 

[Package4]

Hello all,
My question is what kind of jacket did most confederate field grade officers in the ANV wear "in the field"? To be more specific, Florida officers in 1863. Now i know we have all seen the fancy double breasted frock coats in either photos or museums, but after doing a little research and talking to other people im hearing more and more about the officers wearing either a civilian type jacket or a private purchased shell/sack coat with only small gold bars on the collar to show rank. To me it would make more sense for them to wear a sack instead of the frock for numerous reasons. one the frock was a dress uniform, a sack had more pockets to help store all the paperwork he has to do, a sack or shell would have been less expensive to have made and there's more existing examples of the frock than the other which means they probably did not see much field usage. so if anyone has some fact based knowledge that would like to share with me and shed some light on this subject i would be most great full.

I think you will find both, survival rates are not much of a barometer since a frock would not have been worn much post war, whereas the sack or shell might see more civilian use. Officer's would put their coats away upon arriving wherever their post surrender travels took them. There are many drawings and written descriptions of CS officers wearing their frocks and IMHO was the preferred campaign attire. There is no doubt that shell sack and frock were worn, sometimes in a cyclical manner. Cuthbert Slocomb's uniform grouping is one of the most incredible to come out, in the last 50 or so years.

Cuthbert was a member of the Washington Artillery and the grouping includes what appears to be all of his wartime uniforms:
A shell jacket in federal blue with rank straps for a 1st Lt., this was his jacket upon enlistment/commission
A 7 button shell jacket in steel gray broadcloth and a frock to match, with wishbone button configuration, upon promotion to Captain
A standard Confederate frock with the normal button configuration in straight line, double breasted
A 4 button officer's sack in gray wool jeans and one of only 6 known Confederate officer's sack coats in existence, showing evidence of two wounds, Slocomb was wounded twice per records.
A beautiful red broadcloth kepi with a blue band
An incredible slouch hat with the label "Warranted/Army hat/Patented 1863/D'Arcy/New Orleans", this had to have been purchased for him or captured since New Orleans fell before 1863.


All of that said, since this grouping is that of an artillerist and that particular duty is rather hot and dirty it would seem to lend itself to a more utilitarian wear. Cav officers seemed to gravitate to the shell as the skirts of a frock were cumbersome on horseback.

 

[Legion Para]

I think you will find both, survival rates are not much of a barometer since a frock would not have been worn much post war, whereas the sack or shell might see more civilian use. Officer's would put their coats away upon arriving wherever their post surrender travels took them. There are many drawings and written descriptions of CS officers wearing their frocks and IMHO was the preferred campaign attire. There is no doubt that shell sack and frock were worn, sometimes in a cyclical manner. Cuthbert Slocomb's uniform grouping is one of the most incredible to come out, in the last 50 or so years.

Cuthbert was a member of the Washington Artillery and the grouping includes what appears to be all of his wartime uniforms:
A shell jacket in federal blue with rank straps for a 1st Lt., this was his jacket upon enlistment/commission
A 7 button shell jacket in steel gray broadcloth and a frock to match, with wishbone button configuration, upon promotion to Captain
A standard Confederate frock with the normal button configuration in straight line, double breasted
A 4 button officer's sack in gray wool jeans and one of only 6 known Confederate officer's sack coats in existence, showing evidence of two wounds, Slocomb was wounded twice per records.
A beautiful red broadcloth kepi with a blue band
An incredible slouch hat with the label "Warranted/Army hat/Patented 1863/D'Arcy/New Orleans", this had to have been purchased for him or captured since New Orleans fell before 1863.


All of that said, since this grouping is that of an artillerist and that particular duty is rather hot and dirty it would seem to lend itself to a more utilitarian wear. Cav officers seemed to gravitate to the shell as the skirts of a frock were cumbersome on horseback.

Respectfully @Package4, the Cuthbert Slocumb grouping is a typical. Slocomb was a man of means and a senior partner in Slocomb, Baldwin & Co. hardware merchants before the war. He also served in the Army of Tennessee.

@18thmississippi was specifically asking about uniforms worn by field grade officers serving in Floida units of the ANV in 1863.

If we could survey the field grade officers of the Florida Brigade in 1863, all types of coats were probably being worn. It is difficult to ascertain which were the most common in 2018.

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/perrys-brigade-aka-the-florida-brigade.117645/

 

[James N.]

As I recall, both Pat Cleburne and Hiram Granbury were wearing new sack coats when they were killed at Franklin Nov. 30, 1864. I would imagine that as the war progressed uniforms like everything else tended toward simplification.

 

[Klaudly]

The majority of the photographs of the confederate officers were made in the studio when they were on leave or before leaving for the front, and they wore mainly the frock coat, but if you look carefully the few photographs taken to officers just returned from the front or taken in photographic studios near the war zones and if you read letters and descriptions and look at the surviving jackets, it is clear that the officers in service, apart from the frock coat, wore the most comfortable sack coats or jackets.

 

[Package4]

Respectfully @Package4, the Cuthbert Slocumb grouping is a typical. Slocomb was a man of means and a senior partner in Slocomb, Baldwin & Co. hardware merchants before the war. He also served in the Army of Tennessee.

@18thmississippi was specifically asking about uniforms worn by field grade officers serving in Floida units of the ANV in 1863.

If we could survey the field grade officers of the Florida Brigade in 1863, all types of coats were probably being worn. It is difficult to ascertain which were the most common in 2018.

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/perrys-brigade-aka-the-florida-brigade.117645/

View attachment 190365

View attachment 190366

I respectfully agree that the grouping is the exception, but not due to the means of the officer, but that the grouping survived largely intact. The majority of the pieces were from the early stage of the war and thus could be considered ANV. Also atypical was his desire not to accept rank above captain even though it was offered. Early war Confederate officers for the most part, had means and there was much competition to get the best tailors from Savannah, Charleston, Richmond, Atlanta, Birmingham and New Orleans.

It has widely been accepted by scholars that the wealthy elite were elected to the Southern officer corps in the first year of the war and this has been backed up by a recent study by VCU Master's student in his thesis:

"Our Captain is a Gentleman": Officer Elections among Virginia Confederates, 1861-1862​

"Many historians have also viewed the election of elites as a matter of course because of elites' wealth and power in the community. I find this to be true albeit with a caveat. Prospective officers could not rely on wealth or tradition alone to warrant election in spring 1861; the rank and file expected elites to use their wealth to provide tangible, material support for their men, such as clothing, weapons, and equipage. Therefore it was not an officers wealth or privilege alone, but his actions which strengthened his chances of being elected."

Of note, an officer's kepi that I was lucky enough to procure from the family of Lt. William Harwood, 3rd VA Cavalry, shows excellent tailoring from a Charleston hatter and this was the kepi he was wearing when he was killed at Farmville, VA in April of '65. His letters home indicate quite an extensive wardrobe supplemented by items captured from various raids, in fact the boots he was wearing had previously belonged to Union General James H Wilson.

I believe we would have seen more of these type groupings, but baggage train captures and surrenders left many of the spoils to the victor. Couple this with the number of veterans who were buried in their wartime uniforms and the survival rate of such groupings is very limited.

Ron Field also indicates that the majority of uniforms procured by Florida were out of state, many coming from Georgia and Virginia. Agent James Banks travelled to New Orleans, Savannah, Columbus, Mobile and Charleston, looking to procure cloth and ready made uniforms.

Of course this is my humble opinion

 

[Klaudly]

Ron Field also indicates that the majority of uniforms procured by Florida were out of state, many coming from Georgia and Virginia. Agent James Banks travelled to New Orleans, Savannah, Columbus, Mobile and Charleston, looking to procure cloth and ready made uniforms.

Of course this is my humble opinion

In the first photograph a soldier of the 4th Florida infantry regiment, wears a Mississippi uniform.
In the second photograph a soldier of the 1st Florida cavalry regiment, wears a North Carolina uniform.
In the third photograph, a soldier from the 6th Florida Infantry Regiment, wears a Georgia uniform.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

If memory serves, there is a supposed ANV officer sack coat that was supposedly taken from Gettysburg, I believe CJ Daly makes, or made a replica of it. I'm willing to bet that some Confederate officers wore their frock coats in the field, and they are capable of having plenty of pocket space, that's why they have pockets in the tails, and most officers were gentlemen, frocks were standard gentleman dress. Up until 1864 officers had to provide their own uniforms, after that they could draw from government stocks, and where a lot of them are concerned I think if they were gonna shell out the dollars, I can see more than a few going with either a nice sack coat or frock. Also I've read many accounts of the enlisted men selling their issue uniforms right after getting it they tended to prefer cloths sent from home, and I can see an officer buying an enlisted uniform that way and taking to a tailor to have rank and embellishments added to it.

Officers uniforms tended to get raggedy themselves after a while, in my copy of "Memoirs of the Confederate War for Independence" by Hero Von Borcke, (I haven't read it in a while, I loaned it to my cousin years ago, and am just now hearing it may return to me lol), if my memory is right, Von Borcke mentions at one point arriving in Richmond with his jacket in tatters, his trousers in rags, and his boots not having any soles left on them, and he was expected to attend some functions, but wouldn't do so until he could get to a tailor. Another first hand account that comes to mind for me is of Gen. Edward Johnson after Nashville riding to prison with a hole in his hat, and no seat in his trousers.

I think from 1861 till early 1863 frock coats would have been relatively common for field officers, but from mid 1862 on you'd see field officers wardrobe shifting more in the direction of tailor made sack coats, and shell jackets, as frock coats were expensive, (not even factoring inflation in here), and in the field they saw just as much hard usage as an enlisted man's uniform, and just as much wear. Some officers more than likely maintained separate field, and dress uniforms, some from the beginning and this probably became more common after 1863. One good example that comes to mind is Captain W.H. Cleaver's uniform grouping in the Museum of the Confederacy, from the New Mexico Campaign, there's a nice yellow trimmed brown, (butternut), satinet double breasted frock coat, that has very little wear, a pair of trousers, that are worn, and a simple brown satinet shell jacket with rank insignia, of the same material as the frock, that has a ton of wear indicating it saw more usage, perhaps therein lays the answer to question of frocks vs. shell.

Just my thoughts.

 

[tullock]

During 1863 there was a concerted effort, as with the rank and file, to give a more uniform look to officers. Quartermaster records show bulk issues of English army cloth and buttons to officers (lieutenants and captains), in numerous regiments, in both the Eastern and Western theatres. The regimental quartermaster would issue every company officer in the unit 4 yards of English cloth, 14 large and 6 small brass buttons. The officers would pay the QM a set price for the items. They would then be taken to regimental or private tailors to be made up. The amount of cloth and number of buttons indicate frock coats to me. This practice continued well into 1864, towards the end of which records become scarce, so research is limited.

 

[Trooper "D"]

Hello all,
My question is what kind of jacket did most confederate field grade officers in the ANV wear "in the field"? To be more specific, Florida officers in 1863. Now i know we have all seen the fancy double breasted frock coats in either photos or museums, but after doing a little research and talking to other people im hearing more and more about the officers wearing either a civilian type jacket or a private purchased shell/sack coat with only small gold bars on the collar to show rank. To me it would make more sense for them to wear a sack instead of the frock for numerous reasons. one the frock was a dress uniform, a sack had more pockets to help store all the paperwork he has to do, a sack or shell would have been less expensive to have made and there's more existing examples of the frock than the other which means they probably did not see much field usage. so if anyone has some fact based knowledge that would like to share with me and shed some light on this subject i would be most great full.

I would reasearch photos of Confederate prisoners. They were captured in the field on duty so they would be in their normal field wear. Being of Field Rank they might have had discretion but they were still in the military and had to be in uniform. The idea of toning down ones appearance for the sake of not being shot by a sniper or singled out by the enemy in battle makes sense but they also had to be recognisable on the battlefield to their own troops. The amount t of high ranking officers being casualties was from that wonderful leading of men from the front so wearing a non descript uniform wouldn't help in that circumstance. I think those dress uniforms might have been stashed away in the baggage wagon but a field uniform might of been a cheaper version of the same coat. The changes I think would be from lack of materials and comfort. They couldn't get too utilitarian in battle situations but sitting around camp all Winter a nice cheap sack coat is better for getting filthy. On campaign relying on baggage wagons to arrive at camp at all would be fool Hardy.
Florida I was reading somewhere had bleached or undyed uniforms. Almost white but I don't remember where or what unit or even what Army that was about.
Sherman made excuses for his officers being in such filthy uniforms when negotiating the surrender of one southern city saying the dress uniforms were in the baggage wagons. He didn't have wagons. Even the Yankees wore their uniforms to tatters at times. Florida State procurement records would help if they exist.
Sorry for blathering. I've been trying to ascertain what uniforms the Texas Troops wore into the New Mexico Campaign myself. Not much to go on there either.

 

[Package4]

Hello all,
My question is what kind of jacket did most confederate field grade officers in the ANV wear "in the field"? To be more specific, Florida officers in 1863. Now i know we have all seen the fancy double breasted frock coats in either photos or museums, but after doing a little research and talking to other people im hearing more and more about the officers wearing either a civilian type jacket or a private purchased shell/sack coat with only small gold bars on the collar to show rank. To me it would make more sense for them to wear a sack instead of the frock for numerous reasons. one the frock was a dress uniform, a sack had more pockets to help store all the paperwork he has to do, a sack or shell would have been less expensive to have made and there's more existing examples of the frock than the other which means they probably did not see much field usage. so if anyone has some fact based knowledge that would like to share with me and shed some light on this subject i would be most great full.

I just read in one of my research books, that Fremantle (English Army officer) while observing the Confederate Army at Gettysburg noted that most of the officers in Lee's Army wore frock coats, I believe of a cadet gray color. I apologize, I was researching something else and pursuing multiple books, so the source will have to come later.

 

[Package4]

I just read in one of my research books, that Fremantle (English Army officer) while observing the Confederate Army at Gettysburg noted that most of the officers in Lee's Army wore frock coats, I believe of a cadet gray color. I apologize, I was researching something else and pursuing multiple books, so the source will have to come later.

I will correct myself, Fremantle was one of the reviewing officers of Liddell's Brigade, Hardees' Division on June 1st 1863..." most of the officers were dressed in a uniform which is neat and serviceable -- a blueish gray frockcoat of a color similar to the Austrian Yagers." from Cadet Gray and Butternut Brown by Thomas M Arliskas page 67.