Confederate "Country Rifles"

[Rusk County Avengers]

I'll admit, I'm not the most well read on these, plus I've also been trying to remember an article God only knows where, that went into detail on these things stored in a Georgia armory, and not used due to them being unsafe after conversion to I think .54 caliber. I remember it mentioning pikes issued out first, may not have even been an article but some kind of online write up somewhere, and I've about given up combing the OR's trying to find it. So anyone knows what I'm on about I'd appreciate any more info. I've searched on and off for ten years to rediscover it so I'm not holding my breath.

Getting on to the title, does anyone know how common "country rifles" were used? I personally don't think much as they were non-standard calibers and probably varied quite a bit. CS arsenals and laboratories had their hands full making ammunition for more standard military arms and couldn't mess with them. Too many people have taken well to do manufacturers and custom rifle builders word they existed as "They were everywhere and donated by the wagonload" and I have a hard time believing it.

For example, one of my personal favorite first hand accounts by one John C. Porter of the 18th TX Infantry:

"In September...we took up line of march to DeValls Bluff, on the White River [Arkansas] from the apparent anxiety of the officers, they must have expected the enemy, though we were poorly prepared to meet them, as we had not yet drawn arms, and our equipage then was real ludicrous; and after we learned what real service was, we had hearty laughs over our DeVall expedition. Our arms consisted of shotguns and squirrel rifles that we had carried from home. Some had locks, some none, some without any hammers. But we and our officers were brave enough, after giving each man a pocket full of bullets, and a canteen of powder to the company, to start to meet the foe. After encountering heavy rains, and a miry roads, we arrived at the Bluff. Camped, stacked our arms after a fasion, but they soon fell down, whereupon Col. Culberson ordered them taken to a large gate fifty yards distant, and stacked against that, for fear someone might get shot."

Later on:

"Maj. King of our Regiment, rejoined us; he had been to Richmond, Virginia, to procure arms for for the Regiment. At the old camp, we resumed our drill and guard duty.......Here the, the guns described, were replaced by the ones Maj. King had procured."

p. 18-19 "Texans in Gray: A Regimental History of the Civil War"

(Also I used to think it laughable that guns from Richmond ended up with Texas troops in 1862 Arkansas with Porter mistaken, but have since learned four Tredegar M1862 2.25in Mountain Rifles and a LOT of other supplies got that area of Arkansas from Richmond at that time thanks to the efforts of General Hindman. Plus I've read one first hand account Federal account from the Battle of Prairie Grove of a dead Confederate soldier's gun marked "C.S. Richmond V.A." so who knows they may have!)

The quote I put up from Porter to me illustrates the problems with "Country Rifles" in Confederate service, plus that they were replaced as soon as possible. So with all that, what am I missing? How could there possibly be widespread use of such arms? Militarized and the calibers changed to a standard one, maybe, but I have a hard time seeing these guns as a viable weapon, even in the Confederate Army.

 

[archieclement]

I'll admit, I'm not the most well read on these, plus I've also been trying to remember an article God only knows where, that went into detail on these things stored in a Georgia armory, and not used due to them being unsafe after conversion to I think .54 caliber. I remember it mentioning pikes issued out first, may not have even been an article but some kind of online write up somewhere, and I've about given up combing the OR's trying to find it. So anyone knows what I'm on about I'd appreciate any more info. I've searched on and off for ten years to rediscover it so I'm not holding my breath.

Getting on to the title, does anyone know how common "country rifles" were used? I personally don't think much as they were non-standard calibers and probably varied quite a bit. CS arsenals and laboratories had their hands full making ammunition for more standard military arms and couldn't mess with them. Too many people have taken well to do manufacturers and custom rifle builders word they existed as "They were everywhere and donated by the wagonload" and I have a hard time believing it.

For example, one of my personal favorite first hand accounts by one John C. Porter of the 18th TX Infantry:

"In September...we took up line of march to DeValls Bluff, on the White River [Arkansas] from the apparent anxiety of the officers, they must have expected the enemy, though we were poorly prepared to meet them, as we had not yet drawn arms, and our equipage then was real ludicrous; and after we learned what real service was, we had hearty laughs over our DeVall expedition. Our arms consisted of shotguns and squirrel rifles that we had carried from home. Some had locks, some none, some without any hammers. But we and our officers were brave enough, after giving each man a pocket full of bullets, and a canteen of powder to the company, to start to meet the foe. After encountering heavy rains, and a miry roads, we arrived at the Bluff. Camped, stacked our arms after a fasion, but they soon fell down, whereupon Col. Culberson ordered them taken to a large gate fifty yards distant, and stacked against that, for fear someone might get shot."

Later on:

"Maj. King of our Regiment, rejoined us; he had been to Richmond, Virginia, to procure arms for for the Regiment. At the old camp, we resumed our drill and guard duty.......Here the, the guns described, were replaced by the ones Maj. King had procured."

p. 18-19 "Texans in Gray: A Regimental History of the Civil War"

(Also I used to think it laughable that guns from Richmond ended up with Texas troops in 1862 Arkansas with Porter mistaken, but have since learned four Tredegar M1862 2.25in Mountain Rifles and a LOT of other supplies got that area of Arkansas from Richmond at that time thanks to the efforts of General Hindman. Plus I've read one first hand account Federal account from the Battle of Prairie Grove of a dead Confederate soldier's gun marked "C.S. Richmond V.A." so who knows they may have!)

The quote I put up from Porter to me illustrates the problems with "Country Rifles" in Confederate service, plus that they were replaced as soon as possible. So with all that, what am I missing? How could there possibly be widespread use of such arms? Militarized and the calibers changed to a standard one, maybe, but I have a hard time seeing these guns as a viable weapon, even in the Confederate Army.

.36 and .31 were fairly common civilian longarms pre-war.

Ball ammo would be widespread for .36, and imagine fairly available for .31 from pre-war revolvers like 1849 colt.

Here both seemed quite capable killing from revolvers, don't see why they wouldn't have from long arms as well

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

.36 and .31 were fairly common civilian longarms pre-war.

Ball ammo would be widespread for .36, and imagine fairly available for .31 from pre-war revolvers like 1849 colt.

Here both seemed quite capable killing from revolvers, don't see why they wouldn't have from long arms as well

I imagine revolver ammo wouldn't have been interchangeable. Citizen rifled guns back then, even in one caliber tended to very from gun to gun. Colt revolvers came with moulds with round and conical bullet cavities, and neither may have fit in a citizen or country rifle. Plus all the store bought ammo tended to be conicals, and its the them I suspect might not have been interchangeable.

BUT .31 round balls were the usual buckshot size for shotguns, and there were CS arsenal, and such making buckshot. Shotguns are extremely well documented in Confederate service. But I'm curious on the rifles.....

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

Also before it gets brought up, I kind of doubt there were soldiers casting bullets in camp. To have enough for a campaign a company or regiment would require and unbelievable amount of lead and time, and most of their time in camp was filled with drill, picket duty, and so on thus they wouldn't have had time to cast 40 individual rounds, and when they ran out mid battle they wouldn't be able to be re-supplied during or after. Its just a headache I don't see happening.

Not counting how a unit would never be able to execute the military drill with citizen hunting gear.

 

[archieclement]

Not sure the range of the prewar "squirrel" rifles, I would guess in hands of average shooters you would have preferred .58 or .69 much over a 100 yards.

But read a claim the longer barrelled .36 and .31 were some of the faster shooting guns velocity wise and accurate in skilled hands.

But as late as Prices raid, some recruits were sent off with nothing at all.....I woulda took a squirrel rifle over nothing at all

 

[Lampasas Bill]

In 1861 the Missouri State Guard camped at Cow Skin Prairie in the southwest corner of the state after retreating from Boonville. They were primarily armed with shotguns and country rifles. At Cow Skin they prepared for future action by boring shallow holes in split logs for use as bullet molds. When the lead cooled, the "slug" was withdrawn by jabbing the exposed end with a knife and drawing it out. Crude lead projectiles with a gouge in the base have been found on the Wilson's Creek battlefield. These personal arms were eventually exchanged for military arms as they became available. The Missouri State Museum has a document issued to a company of the 1st Missouri Cavalry (Dismounted). The regiment, which fought at Elk Horn Tavern and then crossed to northern Mississippi before the battle of Corinth, was formed primarily from State Guardsmen. The document lists civilian rifles and shotguns purchased from the soldiers by the Confederate Government. Like horses, they were private property, so the men were compensated for them after being re-armed with military weapons. I know Missouri is a special case, but many Confederate companies started out with civilian arms until they could receive military weapons.

 

[uaskme]

TN gathered up all civilians guns who would let them go. Confiscated guns from Unionist. Sent them to Nashville, repaired them and issued them. This was during the secessionist winter. Governor Harris put TN on a War footing before Secession.

I suspect at Fort Henry, Donaldson, Shiloh and the earlier western engagements, anything that could be Loaded was used.

 

[Georgia]

I'll admit, I'm not the most well read on these, plus I've also been trying to remember an article God only knows where, that went into detail on these things stored in a Georgia armory, and not used due to them being unsafe after conversion to I think .54 caliber. I remember it mentioning pikes issued out first, may not have even been an article but some kind of online write up somewhere, and I've about given up combing the OR's trying to find it. So anyone knows what I'm on about I'd appreciate any more info. I've searched on and off for ten years to rediscover it so I'm not holding my breath.

Getting on to the title, does anyone know how common "country rifles" were used? I personally don't think much as they were non-standard calibers and probably varied quite a bit. CS arsenals and laboratories had their hands full making ammunition for more standard military arms and couldn't mess with them. Too many people have taken well to do manufacturers and custom rifle builders word they existed as "They were everywhere and donated by the wagonload" and I have a hard time believing it.

For example, one of my personal favorite first hand accounts by one John C. Porter of the 18th TX Infantry:

"In September...we took up line of march to DeValls Bluff, on the White River [Arkansas] from the apparent anxiety of the officers, they must have expected the enemy, though we were poorly prepared to meet them, as we had not yet drawn arms, and our equipage then was real ludicrous; and after we learned what real service was, we had hearty laughs over our DeVall expedition. Our arms consisted of shotguns and squirrel rifles that we had carried from home. Some had locks, some none, some without any hammers. But we and our officers were brave enough, after giving each man a pocket full of bullets, and a canteen of powder to the company, to start to meet the foe. After encountering heavy rains, and a miry roads, we arrived at the Bluff. Camped, stacked our arms after a fasion, but they soon fell down, whereupon Col. Culberson ordered them taken to a large gate fifty yards distant, and stacked against that, for fear someone might get shot."

Later on:

"Maj. King of our Regiment, rejoined us; he had been to Richmond, Virginia, to procure arms for for the Regiment. At the old camp, we resumed our drill and guard duty.......Here the, the guns described, were replaced by the ones Maj. King had procured."

p. 18-19 "Texans in Gray: A Regimental History of the Civil War"

(Also I used to think it laughable that guns from Richmond ended up with Texas troops in 1862 Arkansas with Porter mistaken, but have since learned four Tredegar M1862 2.25in Mountain Rifles and a LOT of other supplies got that area of Arkansas from Richmond at that time thanks to the efforts of General Hindman. Plus I've read one first hand account Federal account from the Battle of Prairie Grove of a dead Confederate soldier's gun marked "C.S. Richmond V.A." so who knows they may have!)

The quote I put up from Porter to me illustrates the problems with "Country Rifles" in Confederate service, plus that they were replaced as soon as possible. So with all that, what am I missing? How could there possibly be widespread use of such arms? Militarized and the calibers changed to a standard one, maybe, but I have a hard time seeing these guns as a viable weapon, even in the Confederate Army.

Isn't it frustrating when you can't put your hands on that article?

Thought maybe some of this information might jog your memory and maybe you could weed in or out the Armory in Athens. If memory is correct, a New Orleans existing armory relocated to Athens to begin production in 1862(?).

I've got a listing of the various southern armories- We could go one by one if you think the information might help you get to weed potentials in or out and get closer to the elusive info you're seeking.

20 August 1862: Cook Brothers to Build Armory

On this day in 1862, the following bit of local business news was published in the Southern Watchman : Ferdinand and Francis Cook wer...

accheritage.blogspot.com

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

Whenever this topic arises, my mind replays an old black-and-white movie clip where the villagers are aroused by some monster threatening the village, and they take up torches, pitchforks, lengths of firewood and various farm implements, and march into the night to meet the threat. Only the village constable has a regulation type firearm and the local squire or other nobleman has his engraved and gold inlaid side-by-side shotgun using used on the grouse hunt, but they all grab whatever is available and swarm off to meet the Wolfman, or Frankenstien's monster, or whatever the threat may be.
I would think that some very early days of the War would have been like this.
And just as soldiers in more recent wars have used entrenching tools as weapons, I am sure soldiers in the Civil War used their small caliber varmint rifle.

 

[archieclement]

And while thinking about the questionable quality of some civilian arms used, it's worth remembering they would also use some questionable quality foreign surplus.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

TN gathered up all civilians guns who would let them go. Confiscated guns from Unionist. Sent them to Nashville, repaired them and issued them. This was during the secessionist winter. Governor Harris put TN on a War footing before Secession.

I suspect at Fort Henry, Donaldson, Shiloh and the earlier western engagements, anything that could be Loaded was used.

States everywhere seemed to have done it early in the war, and I suspect this was more a mad patriotic/panicky rush than an actual long term strategy. I know Holly Springs is famous for militarizing citizen rifles converting them to a standard caliber, sling swivels, and to use bayonets, and I'd bet that was the usual fate of the guns before being issued.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

Isn't it frustrating when you can't put your hands on that article?

Thought maybe some of this information might jog your memory and maybe you could weed in or out the Armory in Athens. If memory is correct, a New Orleans existing armory relocated to Athens to begin production in 1862(?).

I've got a listing of the various southern armories- We could go one by one if you think the information might help you get to weed potentials in or out and get closer to the elusive info you're seeking.

20 August 1862: Cook Brothers to Build Armory

On this day in 1862, the following bit of local business news was published in the Southern Watchman : Ferdinand and Francis Cook wer...

accheritage.blogspot.com

I think the write up I saw all those years ago may have been on another forum now, one that's long gone. Now if I could remember which one I might could go back in internet archives.

For this one I've tried combing through the OR's and found no hint of the original recorded sources.

And yes, its very frustrating. But good I've remembered it after one reading maybe a decade ago!

 

[Story]

Do a search of old posts, there was someone here that use to make reproductions of these and, as I remember, did a fair amount of primary source research.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

Do a search of old posts, there was someone here that use to make reproductions of these and, as I remember, did a fair amount of primary source research.

Just did to link it here for reference:

Bayonet on Sporting rifle build | Small Arms & Ammunition

One of the guns from the Civil War I've always wanted to build is a fireable militarized sporting rifle. These were quite common in the south. These guns were referred to as country rifles, sporting rifles and Kentucky rifles. They were donated to the cause literally by the wagon load...

civilwartalk.com

 

[Craig L Barry]

The so-called "Country Rifles" including swamped barrel hunting rifles show up in early war images, although one could argue some of those could be studio props. There are a number of accounts of men bringing their hunting rifles and shotguns from home when they enlisted. For one thing, the perception at the beginning of the Civil War was that it was likely to be a short affair and many early volunteer enlistments were for 90 days.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

The so-called "Country Rifles" including swamped barrel hunting rifles show up in early war images, although one could argue some of those could be studio props. There are a number of accounts of men bringing their hunting rifles and shotguns from home when they enlisted. For one thing, the perception at the beginning of the Civil War was that it was likely to be a short affair and many early volunteer enlistments were for 90 days.

Well I've read accounts flintlock Southern Poor Boy rifles being used at Cabin Creek in 1864 Indian Territory, but that's kind of different circumstance. They were literally the bottom the barrel supply wise.

 

[Rhea Cole]

TN gathered up all civilians guns who would let them go. Confiscated guns from Unionist. Sent them to Nashville, repaired them and issued them. This was during the secessionist winter. Governor Harris put TN on a War footing before Secession.

I suspect at Fort Henry, Donaldson, Shiloh and the earlier western engagements, anything that could be Loaded was used.

"The rout of the [rebel] enemy was complete... They then threw away their arms & dispersed through the mountain byways... but are so completely demoralized that I don't believe they will make a stand short of Tennessee." General George Thomas

The Battle of Mill Springs is the poster boy for the useless junk that the Tennessee State Army was issued with. The retreat of the soundly defeated rebels was littered with bent muskets & country weapons that had been pounded against trees. It is the newest NPS CW battlefield park. <nps.gov> Battle of Mill Springs

 

[Lanyard Puller]

Here's 3 from SC, altered and used well into the war. Already posted earlier but I can't locate the post. A "SC musket" or such.

Basic country rifles, made by Tryon and Henry, sent to SC in the 1840-50s. Stored until altered in early 1861. One of these is ID'ed into Kershaws Brigade and Dunker's Church.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

Here's 3 from SC, altered and used well into the war. Already posted earlier but I can't locate the post. A "SC musket" or such.
View attachment 380343

Basic country rifles, made by Tryon and Henry, sent to SC in the 1840-50s. Stored until altered in early 1861. One of these is ID'ed into Kershaws Brigade and Dunker's Church.

Sure those ain't pre-war militia rifles?

EDIT: Like the Dickert model militia rifle?

 

[Lanyard Puller]

I'm positive they are pre-ACW militia rifles, used out of necessity in the ACW.