Comparing Generals, Then and Now

If it's permitted I would like to change one of my answers. All this talk about Joe Johnston has had me pondering on him.

I would say that he was more like Marshal Petain of World War One. Both were cautious and not prone to blunder, careful of their soldiers' lives, and trusted by their officers and men. At the same time, their respective governments accused them of being timid and pessimistic.

With that being said, Marshal Petain of World War Two was a scoundrel of the worst kind.
 
To continue the theme from my last post, I think Marshal Foch is the Hood of the French army. They were very aggressive and thought elan was enough to win the day. Foch was good as the Allied commander in chief but a terrible battlefield commander. He completely wrecked his army at the Marne; his men were butchered like Hood's at Franklin.
 
I can see the Jackson/Rommel comparison in that both were able to maneuver their forces very well. But I think the comparison stops there; Rommel was a much better tactician than Stonewall ever was.

Wonder which one studied the tactics of NBF?
 
Wonder which one studied the tactics of NBF?

What is the source for that claim? Considering that most Europeans considered the ACW as just a bunch of armed mobs running around I don't see why Rommel would be studying up on Forrest.
 
What is the source for that claim? Considering that most Europeans considered the ACW as just a bunch of armed mobs running around I don't see why Rommel would be studying up on Forrest.

It will take me a while to dig that one out, but I didn't create it. Forrest was known for his lack of Napoleonic warfare training and for his creativity when it came to maneuvering his forces during engagements, both flanking and attack maneuvers (sp). That was part of his legend and supposedly Rommel made an attempt to study the accounts for their applicability to tank maneuvers. If Patton could rely on the Romans, seems only fair that Rommel could look to Forrest for inspiration?
 
Rommel and the Rebel

This is from a book review on Barnes and Noble website for ROMMEL AND THE REBEL, Lawrence Wells 2008:

About the book:

Description: ROMMEL AND THE REBEL is a military adventure about the legend that Field Marshal Erwin Rommel toured American civil war battlefields before WWII. In 1937, Rommel, then a Wehrmacht infantry colonel, visits the battlefield park at Brice's Crossroads in Mississippi to study the tactics of Confederate cavalry general Nathan B. Forrest. Rommel's guide and interpreter is a U.S. Army lieutenant of German descent, Lt. Max Speigner. In 1941, when Rommel's panzers are pounding the British army in North Africa, Speigner is attached to the British military intelligence. He recognizes maneuvers inspired by Forrest and launches a desperate duel of wits with the Desert Fox.

Note the term 'legend'. I ain't seen the proof, yet. I have heard this notion in past years without what Elennsar would rightly term "proof".
 
If Patton could rely on the Romans, seems only fair that Rommel could look to Forrest for inspiration?

Of course it's possible but more than likely someone like Caesar has a stronger following among the world's military academies than Forrest. Plus, Rommel and the Germans in general didn't have a high opinion of the American army.

I have heard this notion in past years without what Elennsar would rightly term "proof".

:laugh1:
 
I'd expect any command and staff school of the mid 20th century to spend some time looking at any successful double envelopments of the last couple millennia. Do I remember Forrest pulled one once?

Now, whether they spent an hour, a day, or a week on the subject and the man is anybody's guess.
 
Of course it's possible but more than likely someone like Caesar has a stronger following among the world's military academies than Forrest. Plus, Rommel and the Germans in general didn't have a high opinion of the American army.



:laugh1:

I suspect that opinion was revisited prior to 1946? Remember that Forrest and the Confederate Army were two different items on occasion. His tactics, played out at places in Mississippi, Tennessee and Alabama were of themselves of interest. These were manuevers, however simple, that had not been used prior to that time. There wasn't much to go on in 1942. The NFL was still just a dream.
 
Brilliance, creativity, and genius is just that, whether it's found in the US Civil War with Forrest or Lee (Chancellorsville has been studied for years by foreign military academics), or WWII with Rommel. It wouldn't surprise me at all should it be proven true that Rommel studied Forrest at some point. I believe Patton studied Rommel as well - ( battle scene in movie when Patton is victorious and laughs out loud, field glasses up to his eyes, "Ha! Rommel I read your book!")



Lee
 
As opposed to Montgomery's dawdling during Salerno?

This isn't a Monty vs. Patton thread. In my opinion the two cannot be compared. Monty was an infantryman not a cavalryman. To compare Monty and Patton is like trying to comand Wellington to Paget or Napoleon to Ney or even Lee to Stuart. It's not a fair comparison, the cavalryman's more of an attractive and romantic figure than the infantryman but generally speaking doens't get involved in the heavy fighting as much as the infantryman.

Salerno was an operation that was poorly planned and rested entirely on the belief that the Germans would fight for the Calabria region. Monty is on record as saying, before the operation began, that he felt it would be a waste of manpower, time and resources but was forced to do it anyway. While the Italian forces surrendered to Monty's Eighth Army wholesale the Germans had destroyed all the bridges leading inland, put up numerous roadblocks and laid minefields in the direct route of advance. There was no way for the Eighth Army to bypass those obsticles and so they had to rebuild bridges and removed roadblocks and mines before they could continue. Because the Germans refused to fight and only set up Calabria as a delaying area Monty was proved right in that the whole operation was worthless.

I object to the word "dawdling" because it make it appear that the advance could have gone faster but that's not true. While the Eighth Army faced no real opposition the Germans had set the region up very well to delay any advance and nobody could have gotten through it quickly. If Hobart's Funnies had been available for the invasion of Italy then the advance could have been much faster but they weren't and the Eighth Army was forced to slug its way north.

How are these things his fault?
I didn't say they were his fault but it doesn't change the fact that he was consigned to the flanks, he did fight in areas of secondary importance and he did take the easiest routes of advance. While it shows his abilities to effectively work on the flank and to exploit opening it doesn't put Patton in the same areas as Rommel or Jackson who proved that they could not only work on the flanks and exploit openings but could fight in the thinckest of the action and make openings.

It's not, persay, a criticism of Patton, its more a reason as to why he couldn't reasonably be compared to Rommel or Jackson.

Sounds like Montgomery in Sicily. And at Caen. And at the Scheldt.
Yes, it's similar. The only scraps Patton got involved in was around Metz and the Hammelburg raid (where he wasted manpower, time and resources in a failed attempt rescue his son-in-law from a Germany POW camp which was liberated only nine days after that utter failure).

But even so it's a bit unfair to compare Siciliy and Caen to Metz. The Scrap around Metz was a result of Patton overrunning his supply lines, running out of Gas and then disregarding the fortifications as worthless before being stopped by them while the scrap at Sicily and Caen was a result of the Allies hitting strong defensive positions while attempting to invade the Axis held European territory.

The Scheldt it could be comparable to becuase the fighting there came about because of the failure of Market Garden and Monty's underesitmation of the German defenses and overestimation of the Canadian abilities.

It is worth noting however that the scrapping in Normandy had alway been in Monty's plans. His plans called for the immediate capture of Caen then a holding actions, a scrap, in the Falaise drawing the German forces to the Allied left and making it easier for the Americans to break out on the right. What happened was that the scrap occured around Caen but the general strategy remained the same, hold on the left break out on the right.

Monty was rather annoyed at Eisenhower after the war when Ike said something along the lines of "when the British break out failed it was clear the American's would have to do it". This annoyed Monty because he had made it clear since he got involved in the planning for the campaign in April/May 1944 that it was an Allied plan, one where the British/Commonwelth forces played a holding role while the American's broke out, and continued to reiterate this plan throughout the Normandy Campaign to Alan Brooke, to Churchill, to Leigh-Mallory, to Tedder, to Ramsay and to Eisenhower himself through De Guingand. Eisenhower, saying what he did, lessened the event as an Allied operation and split it into arguments dominated by nationaistic pride. Monty himself never once tried to put any kind of failure on the Americans in the Normandy Campaign and always called it a great Allied Victory so Eisenhower laying some failure on the British/Commonwealth sholders did rightfully annoy him.

But i've gotten a bit off topic.
 
The movie took some artistic license. Rommel's book was Infantry Attacks and not Tank Attacks.

Ok, but it was still Rommel's book and Patton read it. Just because it was entitled "Infantry Attacks" doesn't mean Patton didn't learn from it.



Lee
 
Know thy enemy, know thy self.

How a military commander thinks will be mirrored in any and all decisions made.

Be it artillery, infantry, whatever the case maybe, the military commander must be true to his/her self.

Seek the mind and how it works, vs. seek the tactics and how it was done.

--BBF
 

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