Civil War Presentation Pocket Watch Year 1887

[334-334]

HELLO, MY NAME IN FRED , LAST WEEK I RAN INTO A CIVIL WAR POCKET WATCH AT MY WATCH CLUB..I WAS ABLE TO FIND THE NAME OF THE PERSON ON THE POCKET WATCH. HIS NAME WAS J.J.WOLFORD..I HAVE PICTURES OF IT, BUT I DO NOT KNOW HOW TO POST THEM ON THIS FORUM..I ALSO HAVE ALL OF THE HISTORY ABOUT HIM...ALL OF THE DATA IS FROM 1887--- JUST GOOGLE J.J. WOLFORD FOR ALL OF THE HISTORY ABOUT HIM .... THANK'S FRED -334-334

 

[334-334]

HELLO, MY NAME IN FRED , LAST WEEK I RAN INTO A CIVIL WAR POCKET WATCH AT MY WATCH CLUB..I WAS ABLE TO FIND THE NAME OF THE PERSON ON THE POCKET WATCH. HIS NAME WAS J.J.WOLFORD..I HAVE PICTURES OF IT, BUT I DO NOT KNOW HOW TO POST THEM ON THIS FORUM..I ALSO HAVE ALL OF THE HISTORY ABOUT HIM...ALL OF THE DATA IS FROM 1887--- JUST GOOGLE J.J. WOLFORD FOR ALL OF THE HISTORY ABOUT HIM .... THANK'S FRED -334-334

 

[Albert Sailhorst]

Howdy and Welcome!

 

[Legion Para]

Welcome to the forum 334-334.

 

[JOHN42768]

Welcome,enjoy

 

[Union_Buff]

Hello there and welcome to CWT from New Zealand

 

[Aussie Billy Sherman]

Welcome

 

[chellers]

Hello, Fred, and welcome from Texas.
Your photos look great. Just click on the photo id number for an enlarged image.
We would appreciate you not posting in all caps; makes it difficult for some of our members to read.
@CW Watch Collector will be particularly interested in your photos.

 

[PeterT]

Welcome from Melbourne Australia!

 

[CW Watch & Sword Guy]

Hello Fred from Texas. And thanks to Ms. Hellers for calling my attention to this thread.

Fred, if you hang out at watch clubs, you may already know that what you have is called an "Elgin Convertible" model watch, because the movement was made in such a way that you can insert the winding stem in either of two different places, so that the movement can be used in either an open face case, or a "hunting case" in which the face is covered. (Forgive me if you already know these things, but most of the folks here likely don't.) When one looks at a watch face, called the "dial," one wants 12 o'clock to be in the upright position. In open face cases, the winding stem is inserted at 12 o'clock, and the 4th wheel of the watch movement that carries the seconds hand, is at 6 o'clock, making a 180 degree angle (i.e., a straight line) with the stem. But in hunting case watches, the winding stem is normally at 3 o'clock, so that it makes a 90 degree right angle with the seconds hand (and the 4th wheel underneath it) at 6 o'clock. Elgin convertible model movements were made so that the stem could make either a 180 degree or a 90 degree angle with the seconds hand, so the movement could be used with either style of watch case.

Elgin convertible movements were made in two different styles and several different grades. Your movement is an example of the "three finger bridge" style. It is in a hunting style case that appears - from the one photo - to be original. I cannot tell the jewel count for certain from your photograph, because, for among other reasons, the glass exhibition back (which is a second, decorative inner rear lid, or "dust cover," underneath the gold dust cover) over the movement is casting some glare. However, I believe yours to be a 21 jewel Grade 91 Convertible movement. I say this because the train jewels are in screwed down settings, and both the jewel settings and the wheel train appear to be gold. I would need to see clearer photographs, in which I could clearly see the cap jewels on the pallet bridge and the escape wheel to know for certain. However, if I am right, you either paid a hefty price for this watch or you lucked out - big time! The Elgin Grade 91 21 jewel convertible is among the very highest grade, most exquisitely finished watches ever made in the U.S. It had very limited production, and it is highly sought after by collectors. Your example appears to be in a solid gold hunting style case with a simulated "box hinge," which was a popular case style in the 1880's. Given the time period, the case is more likely 14K gold than 18K gold. I would like to see a dial picture. The 21 jewel convertibles had "double sunk" dials, in which the hour numerals appear on a separate ring that is raised slightly above the central disk of the dial, and the seconds bit is a third piece, another separate disk. The fact that this is a presentation watch makes the possibility that your watch is a 21 jewel example even more likely, and I have seen another 21 jewel example with a serial number only a few hundred numbers from yours. The decorative pattern on the nickel plates (called "damaskeening," which was different than a much older process used on Damascus steel, called "damascening") is a bit Plain Jane for a Grade 91, but I think that's OK.

If you truly didn't know what you were buying when you bought it, you are one lucky fellow! Congratulations.

 

[334-334]

HELLO, MY NAME IN FRED , LAST WEEK I RAN INTO A CIVIL WAR POCKET WATCH AT MY WATCH CLUB..I WAS ABLE TO FIND THE NAME OF THE PERSON ON THE POCKET WATCH. HIS NAME WAS J.J.WOLFORD..I HAVE PICTURES OF IT, BUT I DO NOT KNOW HOW TO POST THEM ON THIS FORUM..I ALSO HAVE ALL OF THE HISTORY ABOUT HIM...ALL OF THE DATA IS FROM 1887--- JUST GOOGLE J.J. WOLFORD FOR ALL OF THE HISTORY ABOUT HIM .... THANK'S FRED -334-334

 

[CW Watch & Sword Guy]

Hi, What I tried to explain in my previous post is that the nature of your watch itself is far more special and collectible - not to mention valuable! - than the presentation on it! I have collected watches for over 30 years, and I have a special interest in watches with Civil War provenances. But personally, a presentation to a veteran dated 22 years after the war ended, and especially a presentation unrelated to the recipient's war service, does not make my juices flow that much. Conversely, almost any knowledgeable watch collector is impressed by a 21 jewel Elgin convertible in a beautiful original case. That is a big deal.

 

[334-334]

Hello, First let me start by saying my name is Fred, and I live in Elgin Il.. I did not buy this watch- one of the members in our club had these pictures.. The next day I started looking up the serial numbers in my data sheets and the Elgin data bank. That's where i found out the age of this pocket watch.. According to the data this watch was from the civil war years making it a very rare watch... I also Google the name J.J. WOLFORD-that was the name on the out side of this watch cover.. Many of the members thought the valve would be in the high thousands-- maybe five or six thousand range !! I posted this info on this forum because it had a very unusual and rare case...

 

[CW Watch & Sword Guy]

Hello, First let me start by saying my name is Fred, and I live in Elgin Il.. I did not buy this watch- one of the members in our club had these pictures.. The next day I started looking up the serial numbers in my data sheets and the Elgin data bank. That's where i found out the age of this pocket watch.. According to the data this watch was from the civil war years making it a very rare watch... I also Google the name J.J. WOLFORD-that was the name on the out side of this watch cover.. Many of the members thought the valve would be in the high thousands-- maybe five or six thousand range !! I posted this info on this forum because it had a very unusual and rare case...

Dear Fred, your watch is very definitely NOT "...from the Civil War years." The Elgin National Watch Company's first movements reached the market in 1867, two years after the Civil War ended, and your particular movement was made between 1881 and 1882, not surprisingly just a few years before the presentation date on the case of the watch. I don't know where you got the idea that that watch dates to the Civil War, but that idea is simply flat out wrong. That is not merely a guess. It is a fact.

As for the "rarity" of the case, rarity is often in the eye of the beholder. In my experience, presentations of that nature are not particularly "rare." But you are ignoring a magnificent baby and obsessing over the bath water. That rare, high grade watch is worth several thousand dollars with or without the presentation on the case. I'm not even sure how much the presentation actually enhances the value. (Of course, the inlaid diamond and the riflery motif on that gorgeous gold, box-hinged case don't hurt either.) If it were my watch, I'm not sure whether I would like it more with or without that particular presentation on it.

You might find the following thread informative:

http://civilwartalk.com/threads/a-primer-on-civil-war-pocket-watches.113747/

 

[Seduzal]

Welcome to CWT from the Smoky Mountain side of North Carolina.