Chickamauga-what if

[lrd89]

What if there wasn't a hole in the Union line at the time of Longstreet's attack at Chickamauga?
What is the outcome of the battle?

 

[nbforrest]

Probably the same thing. I think the "fatal order of the day" scenario is overplayed and exaggerated. Even if Wood had stayed in place, I think Longstreet's attack was strong enough to punch through. Maybe Wood would have bought some time, lessening the fiasco, but who knows. Same ultimate end, I believe.

Respectfully

 

[richard]

There are a lot of "if's" to your question that is for sure. Would Rosecrans stayed on the field? Could the Union forces consolidated and still kept there trains coming in? Who really knows. One thing for sure, the field was such that no one really knew what the other other was doing. Much like the Wilderness. In my HOP, if Thomas had been in command, more than likely, Braggs army would have been defeated.

 

[r_moody]

I think any competent commander would have breached the lines because Rosecran's army was too spread out. Longstreet had his reserves in place and ready to go. When Hood made the request for reinforcements there were no delays.

Rick

 

[lrd89]

There are a lot of "if's" to your question that is for sure. Would Rosecrans stayed on the field? Could the Union forces consolidated and still kept there trains coming in? Who really knows. One thing for sure, the field was such that no one really knew what the other other was doing. Much like the Wilderness. In my HOP, if Thomas had been in command, more than likely, Braggs army would have been defeated.

Yeah there are many what ifs, I can think of so many things that change if the Union line held, but it probably wouldn't have.

 

[samgrant]

Keep in mind that when Rosecrans army was in a serious pinch at Murphreesboro, they managed to get out of it.

Just a thought.

 

[richard]

"Keep in mind that when Rosecrans army was in a serious pinch at Murphreesboro, they managed to get out of it."

If you look at the Battle plans for Murpheesboro, you will find that the preperation of the field and the placement of the lines all fell to General Thomas. Who was it that saved Roscrans from complete distruction in September? General Thomas. Who drew up the battle plans that Grant Ignored at Chattanooga and who won the battle, General Thomas.

 

[jkeith21]

What would have happened if Longstreet had failed to break through?....

Well they would have fought for a while longer, Bragg would have gone in to deep depression and high anxiety for his generals not being able to read his mind and carry out his intents (as opposed to his orders) and he probably would have pulled back.

Rosecrans would have pulled back into Chattanooga, as he did anyway to get back onto his supply lines. Bragg would have followed slowly, as he did anyway to invest the high ground.

... and from there, everything would have evolved as it did anyway!

What a waste.

The better question regarding Chickamauga would be what would have happened had Bragg, with extreme prejudice, pursued and engaged Rosecran's on his retreat to Chattanooga instead of giving him the time to get back and dig in!

 

[blue_zouave]

The better question regarding Chickamauga would be what would have happened had Bragg, with extreme prejudice, pursued and engaged Rosecran's on his retreat to Chattanooga instead of giving him the time to get back and dig in!

In order for that to happen, Bragg would have had to gather his extremely disjointed troops and convinced the generals under him to mount such a pursuit. His generals had already showed that they didn't give a rat's pink tail about Bragg's orders - - witness Leonidas Polk refusing to move at dawn, giving Thomas's troops ample time to arrive at the field and dig in along what is now Battle Line Road as well as Snodgrass Hill. The generals would have had to rally exhausted troops who had already been fighting for two days.

The Chickamauga field was extremely disjointed and remains so. It's rolling hills covered with dense forest broken by cornfields. I don't know how Bragg would have had any idea of what was going on or exactly where Rosecrans was, especially since Bragg's headquarters was rather far from the field of battle. There were still many Federal troops on the field at the end of Day 2. It's not like the entire Federal force left the field in a panic. Thomas's men were still entrenched along the current Battle Line Road and on Snodgrass Hill, and only left after dark on Day 2 at Rosecrans's order.

All interesting conjecture!

Zou

 

[jkeith21]

It was actually more than 2 days of fighting and neither side was any better off than the other. The Federal's retreat only had a tightly contained area to move thru to return to Chattanooga (Rossville Gap) and there were plenty of Generals who approached Bragg urging approval of pursuit while there was still time to do so.

Brings to mind my favorite Bragg story. Soldier who had been in the Gap was brought to Bragg to help convince him that Rosecrans was in full retreat thru the Rossville Gap. Bragg fought the idea forcefully accusing the lowly soldier of (paraphrased) not even knowing what a retreat would look like. The soldier countered that he most certainly knew what a retreat looked like cause he'd been in Bragg's army for the whole war.

But, I digress. Bragg's lack of pursuit was a core issue (or at least brought all other issues to a head) in severing many of his general's confidence in and patience with Bragg... which led to the transfers, which led to a severe (troop strength & morale) weakening of Bragg's AOT, which made Lookout Mountain and Missionary Ridge an easier obstacle to overcome than it should have been, which led to the fall of Chattanooga, which led to the fall of Atlanta, which led to..........

The was no real victory at Chickamauga. Victory could have only been achievable had Rosecrans been forced beyond Chattanooga. Holding the field at Chickamauga after the battle produced no gain for the Confederacy other than what they could glean from it in the subsequent days.

 

[blue_zouave]

Jkeith, you've obviously studied the battle in depth and I agree with everything you say.

The problem remains the personalities of the commanding generals... neither one put on a very good show at Chickamauga.

Best regards,
Zou

 

[30th_il]

Chattanooga

Well, if the Union held due to all these "what ifs", the Chattanooga wouldn't be as well known as much more than a supply depot for either army. But THE BIG what if....would the city be known well enough for Glen Miller to have recorded "Chattanooga Choo-choo" and if not! Would the boys of WWII have been able to keep up their morale and defeat the Nazis and Japanese!

 

[richard]

Chattanooga

Chattanooga at the time of the war and for sometime after, was a rather small town. The the "if" that you expressed would not have made any difference. Chattanooga was and still is a railroad center being that it was the shortest, easiest route from Chicago to Atlanta and points south.

Although the battles at Chattanooga did help give it a good swift kick on the road to being a jewell of the south. it would have grown. Wilder, after the war located there and developed the iron industry and was for sometime the mayor of that fine city. During WWll, Dupont had a large TNT plant there and some of it is still there. Dupont also produced nylon there and still does to feed the carpet mills in Dalton, Ga. When I was living in Chattanooga in the 60's, Combustion Engineering was not only producing large boilers for industry, but was making most of the nucular reactors that are in use in the US.

If you look at a map, you will find that the Interstate system in the area is comprised of three main roads. Interstate 75 runs from Detroit to Fla. Interstate 24 connects Interstate 65 at Nashville and on to Chicago. Also, I 24 goes on to St. Louis. Interstate 59 connects Chattanooga with Birminghan. Almost all of these highways more or less follow the railroads that were use during the Civil War and then after.

Chattanooga would have grown into a major center even if the war had not come to it.

 

[30th_il]

Chattanooga

Well, perhaps the town of Chattanooga would have become a major town without the civil war though there wouldn' be as many books written about it apropos the comflict. One thing is for sure, if the Union forces had held, Gen. Geo. Thomas would not have earned his sobriquet , or he would have had to share them amongst other generals but somehow..."The Rocks of Chickamagua" doesn't seem to cut it...unless you are talking about a rock group. Now ain't that a name for a band! Imagine heavy metal versions of Aura Lee, Dixie, Marching Through Georgia! Boggles the mind, ha!

 

[jkeith21]

I love the area. My wife is from Signal Mountain there and we own land just south of Chattanooga outside of Ringgold, GA, oddly enough, in a community named Keith, GA. In addition to being within the whole Chattanooga/Chickamauga theatre area, I'm about 1/4 mile from a WBTS hospital site named Catoosa Springs where there are still trenches on the ridgelines and other evidence remaining. Relic hunters do well in the area. The aura of the history of that area is almost tangible and at times overwhelming. When I need recharging, I'll go up there, find a hilltop or ridge with a view and just soak it in. We'll be retiring to that place as soon as I can afford to do so, or as soon as I can't afford not to! - Joe

 

[lrd89]

... In addition to being within the whole Chattanooga/Chickamauga theatre area, I'm about 1/4 mile from a WBTS hospital site named Catoosa Springs where there are still trenches on the ridgelines and other evidence remaining.

The compiled service record of one of my Union ancestors says he was hospitalized in 1864 in Graysville, GA but I've never really found much about the Graysville hospital. I wonder if these are one and the same? If not I think that they are close to each other.
Roger

 

[jkeith21]

The compiled service record of one of my Union ancestors says he was hospitalized in 1864 in Graysville, GA but I've never really found much about the Graysville hospital. I wonder if these are one and the same? If not I think that they are close to each other.
Roger

Graysville is in the same general area, about 3-4 miles W or WSW of Catoosa Springs and is between Catoosa Springs and the Chickamauga battlefield. Go to Yahoo Maps and enter <Graysville, GA> for fix on actual location. Map will include a portion of the battlefield, Catoosa Springs and Keith.

 

[SpartanGSG]

Chickamuga -what if

Probably the same thing. I think the "fatal order of the day" scenario is overplayed and exaggerated. Even if Wood had stayed in place, I think Longstreet's attack was strong enough to punch through. Maybe Wood would have bought some time, lessening the fiasco, but who knows. Same ultimate end, I believe.

Respectfully

After an initial vigorou defense all up and down the line and beating off Confererate attacks, were not Federal forces in all sectors starting to teeter anyway by Longstreet's attack due to a lack of defense in depth at any one point??