"Charge Those Lines!"

[dennmorr]

General Hancock directs Colonel William Colvill and the 1st Minnesota to attempt a suicidal charge on July 2. This is a beta so as usual your learned criticism is appreciated.

Dennis

 

[Fairfield]

The 3rd Maine was assigned a suicidal mission to hold a position at Gettysburg. As a non-military and unlearned person, I see no point in sending soldiers toward predictable extinction. I thought that the point was to eradicate enemy soldiers, not one's own.

 

[thomas aagaard]

The 3rd Maine was assigned a suicidal mission to hold a position at Gettysburg. As a non-military and unlearned person, I see no point in sending soldiers toward predictable extinction. I thought that the point was to eradicate enemy soldiers, not one's own.

Buying time.
Time was according to Napoleon I the one thing you could never get back if lost.

example. loosely inspired by 1st Minnesota
You need 10 minutes to get a brigade of 2000men to a critical position that is good for defense from both sides.
The enemy is attacking with 3000 men, and will get to the position in 7 minutes.

If you do nothing, the enemy will take the position first and your outnumbered brigade will be stopped with heavy looses.

So you find 200 men, they attack the enemy and he "loose" 5 minutes to destroy the 200men.

You now get your 2000men into the good defensive position, and they stop the enemy and inflict heavy casualties on him.
So even with the sacrifice of the 200men, you held your position, and inflicted more casualties on the enemy than you lost.

 

[JOHN42768]

Cannon fodder

 

[rpkennedy]

Buying time.
Time was according to Napoleon I the one thing you could never get back if lost.

example. loosely inspired by 1st Minnesota
You need 10 minutes to get a brigade of 2000men to a critical position that is good for defense from both sides.
The enemy is attacking with 3000 men, and will get to the position in 7 minutes.

If you do nothing, the enemy will take the position first and your outnumbered brigade will be stopped with heavy looses.

So you find 200 men, they attack the enemy and he "loose" 5 minutes to destroy the 200men.

You now get your 2000men into the good defensive position, and they stop the enemy and inflict heavy casualties on him.
So even with the sacrifice of the 200men, you held your position, and inflicted more casualties on the enemy than you lost.

Exactly right. In the terrible arithmetic of war, sometimes spending lives for time is a necessity. The 16th Maine had to do it on July 1 and the 1st Minnesota had to do it on the 2nd. Almost every battle has one of those units.

Ryan

 

[Fairfield]

Buying time.
Time was according to Napoleon I the one thing you could never get back if lost.

example. loosely inspired by 1st Minnesota
You need 10 minutes to get a brigade of 2000men to a critical position that is good for defense from both sides.
The enemy is attacking with 3000 men, and will get to the position in 7 minutes.

If you do nothing, the enemy will take the position first and your outnumbered brigade will be stopped with heavy looses.

So you find 200 men, they attack the enemy and he "loose" 5 minutes to destroy the 200men.

You now get your 2000men into the good defensive position, and they stop the enemy and inflict heavy casualties on him.
So even with the sacrifice of the 200men, you held your position, and inflicted more casualties on the enemy than you lost.

Napoleon was inaccurate: you could never get those lives back either.

 

[Sundance]

Amazing what these soldiers would undertake knowing the probable outcome. ... and it seemed to happen often.

 

[rpkennedy]

Paging @pmuskett. Your expertise on Wilcox would be appreciated.

Ryan

 

[Pat Answer]

"It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it."

"War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it…"

 

[pmuskett]

I like that representation. Wilcox's men are into neat of a line though. They were mingled up somewhat.

E.D. Patterson of the 9th Alabama will write "There were no longer companies or regiments, scarcely brigades, for Barksdale's had completely overlapped ours and we were mingled in glorious confusion." Yankee Rebel: The Civil War Journal of Edmund Dewitt Patterson. pg 105

Hilary Herbert will write in the History of the 8th Alabama, "Oh for a single brigade appearing on the hill behind us..."

 

[Tom Elmore]

The 1st Minnesota doubtless would have sustained crushing loss had they simply remained in place - there was no cover. In that case, I think it more advantageous to counterattack and wrest the initiative away from the enemy. They stopped the 9th Alabama and diverted the attention of the 5th Florida away from their effort to drive off Battery C, 4th U.S. and the 19th Maine, thirty minutes before sunset. I don't consider the action suicidal since they likely inflicted nearly as much damage as they sustained. Willard's brigade did the same thing just to the south, and no one speaks of their counterattack as suicidal. The object is to stop the enemy and that's what they did very effectively despite being heavily outnumbered.

 

[dennmorr]

The 1st Minnesota doubtless would have sustained crushing loss had they simply remained in place - there was no cover. In that case, I think it more advantageous to counterattack and wrest the initiative away from the enemy. They stopped the 9th Alabama and diverted the attention of the 5th Florida away from their effort to drive off Battery C, 4th U.S. and the 19th Maine, thirty minutes before sunset. I don't consider the action suicidal since they likely inflicted nearly as much damage as they sustained. Willard's brigade did the same thing just to the south, and no one speaks of their counterattack as suicidal. The object is to stop the enemy and that's what they did very effectively despite being heavily outnumbered.

Thanks Tom, Probably it would have been a better choice to have qualified "suicidal" a bit-maybe "near suicidal."

 

[rpkennedy]

Napoleon was inaccurate: you could never get those lives back either.

While you are correct, lives are the currency of war. Good generals spend it wisely. IMO, Hancock did what was right here, even knowing how badly the 1st Minnesota was going to be chewed up. He had to slow Wilcox and Lang and they were who he had to accomplish that goal. IIRC, he later wrote that, even looking back on it, he would have ordered the attack even if every man advancing was going to die.

Ryan

 

[Story]

Amazing what these soldiers would undertake knowing the probable outcome. ... and it seemed to happen often.

Welcome to the history of conflict.

"All this has happened before, and all of it will happen again"​

 

[Gettysburg Greg]

General Hancock directs Colonel William Colvill and the 1st Minnesota to attempt a suicidal charge on July 2. This is a beta so as usual your learned criticism is appreciated.
View attachment 524232Dennis

Very well-done IMO, Mr. Morris! I like the slight embellishment to South Mountain in the background as you can see in a similar modern view from Google Earth.

 

[Tom Elmore]

By the way, how many remember the heroic stance of the 19th Massachusetts and 42nd New York? Side-by-side, they were about the same strength as the 1st Minnesota. They faced off against the same 9th Alabama just minutes before and about 500 yards in front of the 1st Minnesota. But instead of charging they just stood their ground in the open. Quickly overwhelmed, they were driven from the field with heavy loss. Their sacrifice seems to have been largely forgotten.

There is one other thing to mention about the 1st Minnesota. Their advance placed them directly in front of the 9th Alabama (by my calculation) and also between the 5th Florida and 14th Alabama on either flank. So that when the 5th Florida began firing at the 1st Minnesota's right flank, any shots that missed may have struck the 14th Alabama, and vice versa. The 1st Minnesota's charge held the attention of three Confederate regiments, perhaps saving Battery C, 4th U.S. in front of the 5th Florida and perhaps making it easier for Willard's 111th New York to repulse the 14th Alabama. However, unlike 19 MA/42 NY, their sacrifice is still being discussed 160 years later.

 

[dennmorr]

Very well-done IMO, Mr. Morris! I like the slight embellishment to South Mountain in the background as you can see in a similar modern view from Google Earth.
View attachment 524305

Good catch Greg- My horizon is based on a shot I took from the Pennsylvania Monument -Probable 20 feet higher (and a bit to the north) than google and probably a bit higher than the perspective of my diograph.

 

[thomas aagaard]

Napoleon was inaccurate: you could never get those lives back either.

From a human perspective, you are obviously completely right.

But from the perspective of the state... you get new men each and every year.
Simply look up the number of boys born 18 years ago,(or what ever age you define at "ready for war") subtract some % to cover deaths and disability. And that is how many potential new recruits you get each year.

 

[Jantzen64]

Would highly recommend "A Pale Horse at Plum Run" by Brian Leehan for an in depth review of this part of the battle; also, more generally, "The Last Full Measure" by Richard Moe.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

Napoleon was inaccurate: you could never get those lives back either.

No, Napoleon was not inaccurate. You can't get back time.
And as you say, it is ALSO true that you can't get back individual soldiers who are killed.

Both statements are accurate.

The decider has to weigh the balance needed in a particular case. More killings, save more time, or less killings, lose more time.