Champion Hill

anyexcuse

Private
Joined
Nov 18, 2008
Location
Minnesota
Hi all!
This is probably a stupid qustion, but I woke up a couple mornings ago wondering this. Where was Joe Johnson while Pemberton was getting licked at Champion Hill? I know he evacuated Jackson, but was he so far away he couldn't have attacked Grant's flank? If he wasn't close enough to help, why not? Did he think Grant was going to split up his troops to chase him?

I'm a fresh recruit when it comes to this stuff, so please bear with me. Thanks!
 
There are no stupid questions, anyexcuse. And not all answers are stupid. I don't have an answer for you at this minute at this time of night. Joe Johnston seems to have demonstrated that he was not fit to command a group of Shriner's in their little cars.

That he may have done something to help Pemberton is talked about endlessly. That he didn't actually do anything is also talked about endlessly.

From here, it seems that he was a cipher. A general in the US army who may or may not have done an adequate job as quartermaster. And, when declaring himself a Confederate, immediately picks a fight with the President. This does not give me much confidence in his natural talents.

So I just toss him off as useless. There are others to stand up for him. And that's exactly why you were lucky to have stumbled across this board. We're going to talk about this for weeks. Hang in here. Okay?

Okay. Umm. About where in Minnesota? Don't have to name a town. NE, SW. Close to the cities?

I have an affinity with your state. Three miles east and I'd be on 23. My grandfather was born in Houston County. Blackhammer Township. We generally stay in Luverne when we make my annual treck back to South Dakota. There's this nice bar just across the parking lot ....

Never mind.

Ole (I'll bet you know how to pronounce Ole.)
 
There are no stupid questions, anyexcuse. And not all answers are stupid. I don't have an answer for you at this minute at this time of night. Joe Johnston seems to have demonstrated that he was not fit to command a group of Shriner's in their little cars.

That he may have done something to help Pemberton is talked about endlessly. That he didn't actually do anything is also talked about endlessly.

From here, it seems that he was a cipher. A general in the US army who may or may not have done an adequate job as quartermaster. And, when declaring himself a Confederate, immediately picks a fight with the President. This does not give me much confidence in his natural talents.

So I just toss him off as useless. There are others to stand up for him. And that's exactly why you were lucky to have stumbled across this board. We're going to talk about this for weeks. Hang in here. Okay?

Okay. Umm. About where in Minnesota? Don't have to name a town. NE, SW. Close to the cities?

I have an affinity with your state. Three miles east and I'd be on 23. My grandfather was born in Houston County. Blackhammer Township. We generally stay in Luverne when we make my annual treck back to South Dakota. There's this nice bar just across the parking lot ....

Never mind.

Ole (I'll bet you know how to pronounce Ole.)

Thanks for the reply, it just seems to me that Joe would have had a good chance to trap Grant there, when the federal troops were somewhat divided and not entrenched.

I live by Alexandria MN, halfway between the cities and Fargo. I was raised down by where much of the Sioux uprising of "62 took place, I went to college in NE and lived in CO a few years. My parents live in Hermitage, TN and I have been there a lot, and to many battlefields. (not Champion Hill, though). This website seems like a great resource!

Yes, I know how to pronounce Ole, and Lena too! :)
 
The evacuation of Jackson itself is question by some because if he had stayed in Jackson for another day or two Johnston would have had around 15,000 men at his disposal rather than 6,000 he had originally but, as was typical of Johnston, he played it safe and withdrew his troops from battle until such a time as he coud pull together an army that was more equally numbered to that of its enemy.

Following his evacuation of Jackson, Joe Johnston took his force up the Canton Road and, while reinforceing his own small force, he sent an order to General Pemberton to leave Edwards Station and attack the Federals at Clinton. Pemberton held a council of war his Generals and decided that attacking Clinton was too risky and decided instead to attack the Union supply trains moving from Grand Gulf to Raymond and had already started after them when he recieved a message from Johnston reinforcing his earlier orders and so Pemberton turned around and began to march in the other direction.

As far as I know at the point in time of Champion Hill Johnston was marching North along the Canton Road, reinforcing himself with the men that would have arrived at Jackson should he have chosen to stay there, he would then stay at Canton while continually reinforcing his force until it reach a size he was happy could oppose the Federal in the field.
 
The evacuation of Jackson itself is question by some because if he had stayed in Jackson for another day or two Johnston would have had around 15,000 men at his disposal rather than 6,000 he had originally but, as was typical of Johnston, he played it safe and withdrew his troops from battle until such a time as he coud pull together an army that was more equally numbered to that of its enemy.

Following his evacuation of Jackson, Joe Johnston took his force up the Canton Road and, while reinforceing his own samll force, he sent an order to General Pemberton to leave Edwards Station and attack the Federals at Clinton. Pemberton held a council of war his Generals and decided that attacking Clinton was too risky and decided instead to attack the Union supply trains moving from Grand Gulf to Raymond and had already started after them when he recieved a message from Johnston reinforcing his earlier orders and so Pemberton turned around and began to march in the other direction.

As far as I know at the point in time of Champion Hill Johnston was marching North along the Canton Road, reinforcing himself with the men that would have arrived at Jackson should he have chosen to stay there, he would then stay at Canton while continually reinforcing his force until it reach a size he was happy could oppose the Federal in the field.

Thanks! I guess I didn't know Johnson ony had about 6,000 men, for some reason I was thinking he had more. Still, that could have been enough to make quite a difference if used on Grant's right flank.

Johnson never did happily oppose the federals at Vicksburg, did he? I think I read somewhere he was planning to about the time Pemberton surrendered July 4.
 
Johnston said it all when he arrived to assume his command in Jackson, "I am too late...".
It was only on May 9, that Johnston received the dispatch from Sec'y of War Seddon, directing him to "Proceed at once to Mississippi and take chief command of the forces in the field."
Johnston arrived in Jackson on the evening of May 13, learning that his effective force immediately to hand was some 6,000 men and that Two Union Corps (Sherman and McPherson) were close by and advancing on Jackson.
The next day, May 14, the Union forces were attacking. All Jackson could do, was order Pemberton to withdraw and join his command with Johnston's.
As we know Pemberton's delay in obeying Johnston's instructions lost him the Battle at Champion Hill and Vicksburg.
Johnston has a lot to answer for during the War, but the loss at Champion Hill (Or Vicksburg) is not one of them.
 
Johnston said it all when he arrived to assume his command in Jackson, "I am too late...".
It was only on May 9, that Johnston received the dispatch from Sec'y of War Seddon, directing him to "Proceed at once to Mississippi and take chief command of the forces in the field."
Johnston arrived in Jackson on the evening of May 13, learning that his effective force immediately to hand was some 6,000 men and that Two Union Corps (Sherman and McPherson) were close by and advancing on Jackson.
The next day, May 14, the Union forces were attacking. All Jackson could do, was order Pemberton to withdraw and join his command with Johnston's.
As we know Pemberton's delay in obeying Johnston's instructions lost him the Battle at Champion Hill and Vicksburg.
Johnston has a lot to answer for during the War, but the loss at Champion Hill (Or Vicksburg) is not one of them.
Thanks. Like I said, I woke up wondering just where Johnson was, and why, during the CH battle and thanks to you folks I am finding out.
 
In fairness to Pemberton, Johnston's so-called Army of Relief didn't provide him with the support that it was supposed to.

Made life a bit easier for Rosecrans, though.
 
In fairness to Pemberton, Johnston's so-called Army of Relief didn't provide him with the support that it was supposed to.

From what I remember of the Vicksburg Campaign by the time Johnston had assembled an Army of the size he was happy would be able to make some significant impact on Grant's Army, rather than just be an annoyance to him, and was prepared to attack Grant and was moving to do so Pemberton surrendered.

It can be argued that Johnston's progress in Mississippi was hampered a lot by his arguements with Davis and his poor working relationship with Pemberton and as such he wasn't as efficent as in creating an army as he should have been but that is not entirely his own fault as his authority in bringing together the scattered Confederate forces in the Mississippi area was never really established as it should have been.

Because Johnston was not prepared to attack Grant unless his attack could have meant something in terms of impact on the Union Army and effect on the campaign he was not going to attack until he had enough men to make such kind of impact. He was planning an attack on Grant at Vicksburg but believed that such an attack on the Union Army could only succeed if Pemberton were to attack from Vicksburg at the same time and that the final goal of such an battle would be to get the Army of Mississippi out of Vicksburg and into an area where it would be usable again. Johnston also wanted to give tactical control of the proposed battle to Pemberton as he was not famillar with the area and was not as aware of the placement of the Union Army as Pemberton was.

Pemberton felt that Johnston should come and break the seige with his force while Pemberton protected the city and that Johnston was unreasonable in suggest that Pemberton take tactical command of the proposed battle. Pemberton also dissagreed with the final target of such a battle as he believed that the end goal should be the relief of Vicksburg not the removal of the AoM from it.

The arguement between these two over this proposed battle to relieve Vicksburg/save the AoM resulted in Johnston's Army of about 31,000 stalling in its advance towards Vicksburg at the Big Black River for too long and convincing Pemberton that he had to surrender. If Pemberton had been more willing to accept Johnston as his commander and followed his orders then this may not have happened but similarly if Johnston had been more open to Pemberton's side of the arguement and accepted its merits and attempted to change his plans accordingy it might have prevented the same situation happening.

The fact is however Johnston was not properly established as the top ranking Confederate commander in Mississippi, Pemberton thought he could change or simply ignore Johnston's orders, neither Johnston nor Pemberton agreed with the main objectives of the campaign and Davis, when he got involved, didn't help sort the problems at all but only helped undermine Johnston authority and further split apart the fragile working relationship between the two Confederate Commanders in the Theatre.

Compared to the united front that the Union forces showed under Grant its no wonder the Confederates lost Vicksburg, lost Mississippi and lost the Army of that State.
 
Grant could always get more men, faster, than Johnston. No matter how long the siege lasted.
That is why I was initially thinking Johnson should have helped Pemberton by flanking Grant at Champion Hill fron the NE. Once Pemberton was chased over the Big Black, the outcome was fairly certain. The way I see it, Champion Hill was basically his last good chance to stop the Federals. Maybe Joe couldn't be faulted for waiting for his very soon to be arriving reinforcements. Sounds like he hadn't been there long and wasn't familliar with the land, either.
 
Too Little, Too Late. Johnston barely got into Jackson to assume command, when he and his meagre forces were driven out the next day. He barely had to time to organize his retreat. Johnston had to twice order Pemberton to fall back north and link up with him. Grant brought Pemberton to battle at Champion Hill 2 days after Johnston had retreated from Jackson moving North expecting Pemberton follow orders and move North to meet him. There was no time (or adequate forces) for Johnston to turn around and advance in time to save Pemberton.
 
Too Little, Too Late. Johnston barely got into Jackson to assume command, when he and his meagre forces were driven out the next day. He barely had to time to organize his retreat. Johnston had to twice order Pemberton to fall back north and link up with him. Grant brought Pemberton to battle at Champion Hill 2 days after Johnston had retreated from Jackson moving North expecting Pemberton follow orders and move North to meet him. There was no time (or adequate forces) for Johnston to turn around and advance in time to save Pemberton.
Thanks! That makes sense.
 

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