Captured Union Locomotives

[USS ALASKA]

@DaveBrt (and other railroad enthusiasts )

Sir, was reading this newspaper article about captured Union locomotives;

From the Richmond Dispatch, 9/18/1862, p. 2, c. 4

Yankee Engines. There are now at the York River Railroad depot two very fine Yankee railroad engines, the Exeter and Spark, which with some slight repairs, can be made available in a more creditable business than hauling supplies to McClellan's played out "Army of the Potomac." When Gen. Stuart's cavalry made its detour in rear of McClellan's army, he found the above engines on the road above the White House, abandoned by their possessors, and not injured. For fear they would carry them off, his men disabled them. Afterwards, the Yankees burned off the wood work and threw, the connecting rods in the river. Save these injuries, the machines are as good as ever.

Looked them up on your web page for Captured Locos (http://csa-railroads.com/Essays/Captured_Union_Locomotives.htm ) and became interested in the different manufactures.

Could find most of them listed here...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_locomotive_builders

...but couldn't find a reference for Murray & Hazlehurst

Did some Google hunting and found references to a company in Baltimore. Would that be them?

Also, I couldn't get your http://csa-railroads.com/Essays/Builders_Of_Confederate_Locomotives.htm page to come up - got a '404 Page Not Found' error.

Thanks,
USS ALASKA

 

[DaveBrt]

@DaveBrt (and other railroad enthusiasts )

Sir, was reading this newspaper article about captured Union locomotives;

From the Richmond Dispatch, 9/18/1862, p. 2, c. 4

Yankee Engines. There are now at the York River Railroad depot two very fine Yankee railroad engines, the Exeter and Spark, which with some slight repairs, can be made available in a more creditable business than hauling supplies to McClellan's played out "Army of the Potomac." When Gen. Stuart's cavalry made its detour in rear of McClellan's army, he found the above engines on the road above the White House, abandoned by their possessors, and not injured. For fear they would carry them off, his men disabled them. Afterwards, the Yankees burned off the wood work and threw, the connecting rods in the river. Save these injuries, the machines are as good as ever.

Looked them up on your web page for Captured Locos (http://csa-railroads.com/Essays/Captured_Union_Locomotives.htm ) and became interested in the different manufactures.

Could find most of them listed here...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_locomotive_builders

...but couldn't find a reference for Murray & Hazlehurst

Did some Google hunting and found references to a company in Baltimore. Would that be them?

Also, I couldn't get your http://csa-railroads.com/Essays/Builders_Of_Confederate_Locomotives.htm page to come up - got a '404 Page Not Found' error.

Thanks,
USS ALASKA

Thanks for the info on the bad link. The link is fixed, but you will have to go to this link, not the one in your post.

http://csa-railroads.com/Essays/Builders_of_Confederate_Locomotives1.htm

Murray & Hazlehurst was a very small builder. I did not include them on the page above and do not have my files with me on the road. I can get back to you in a couple of weeks.

 

[USS ALASKA]

That link works!

I can get back to you in a couple of weeks.

Please sir - no hurry what-so-ever. Was just looking over the list and knew of some of them from reading about Baldwin and ALCO and the mergers that led to ALCO's formation. The ones I didn't know I looked up. Interesting how for more than a few of these producers, locos seem to be a secondary product line. And that more than a few made steam engines for fire fighting. I'm guessing that in that era, the tech was transferable and similar.

Thanks again!
USS ALASKA

 

[USS ALASKA]

From the Richmond Dispatch, 1/23/1863, p. 1

In Use. - One of the splendid Yankee railroad engines captured by our troops near Manassas, some months since, and assigned to the Danville Railroad, having been thoroughly repaired at the workshops of the company in this city, was yesterday placed on the road for the first time. It operated finely. To adapt it to use on the road the gauge of the engine had to be altered, but being of superior make, it was worth all the alteration required. Formerly bearing the name of some Yankee General, the Abolitionists would now hardly know the specimen of their handicraft under the modest cognomen of Pocahontas, which she bears.

Cheers,
USS ALASKA

 

[AndyHall]

Changing the gauge of a locomotive would seem to be a tremendous engineering undertaking, as it would involve repositioning and realigning pressure fittings, including the cylinders. Correct?

 

[DaveBrt]

Changing the gauge of a locomotive would seem to be a tremendous engineering undertaking, as it would involve repositioning and realigning pressure fittings, including the cylinders. Correct?

Must not have been too big a project -- hundreds of Union locomotives were changed to the 5' gauge to populate the US Military RR in the west and I have never seen a mention of how difficult, time consuming or expensive that was.

 

[Mr. King]

Seems like it'd be easier to change the gauge of the track, rather than the engine, especially considering that moving to some type of uniformity in this area would have done the country a lot of good. Find the most common size, preferably not one that the yankees would use, and then run with that one.

 

[JOHN42768]

Seems like it'd be easier to change the gauge of the track, rather than the engine, especially considering that moving to some type of uniformity in this area would have done the country a lot of good. Find the most common size, preferably not one that the yankees would use, and then run with that one.

Since the majority of railroads were in the Northern area of the US why not standardize on on that size?

 

[OpnCoronet]

In the history of the War of Logistics of the CW, I understand not one RR Engine or a single RR track was produced by the South, during the War.

 

[USS ALASKA]

In the history of the War of Logistics of the CW, I understand not one RR Engine or a single RR track was produced by the South, during the War.

I believe Robert Black stated the same thing in 'The Railroads of the Confederacy'

Cheers,
USS ALASKA

 

[WJC]

@DaveBrt (and other railroad enthusiasts )

Sir, was reading this newspaper article about captured Union locomotives;

From the Richmond Dispatch, 9/18/1862, p. 2, c. 4

Yankee Engines. There are now at the York River Railroad depot two very fine Yankee railroad engines, the Exeter and Spark, which with some slight repairs, can be made available in a more creditable business than hauling supplies to McClellan's played out "Army of the Potomac." When Gen. Stuart's cavalry made its detour in rear of McClellan's army, he found the above engines on the road above the White House, abandoned by their possessors, and not injured. For fear they would carry them off, his men disabled them. Afterwards, the Yankees burned off the wood work and threw, the connecting rods in the river. Save these injuries, the machines are as good as ever.

Looked them up on your web page for Captured Locos (http://csa-railroads.com/Essays/Captured_Union_Locomotives.htm ) and became interested in the different manufactures.

Could find most of them listed here...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_locomotive_builders

...but couldn't find a reference for Murray & Hazlehurst

Did some Google hunting and found references to a company in Baltimore. Would that be them?

Also, I couldn't get your http://csa-railroads.com/Essays/Builders_Of_Confederate_Locomotives.htm page to come up - got a '404 Page Not Found' error.

Thanks,
USS ALASKA

This must have been a day of great celebration, like winning the lottery.
Locomotives were in short supply in the South. By 1860, 470 locomotives had been produced in the USA, but only nineteen in the South. <Bavid Blight, Lecture 13:Terrible Swift Sword: The Period of Confederate Ascendency, 1861-1862. Yale Courses.

Comment at about 24 minutes.>

 

[DaveBrt]

This must have been a day of great celebration, like winning the lottery.
Locomotives were in short supply in the South. By 1860, 470 locomotives had been produced in the USA, but only nineteen in the South. <Bavid Blight, Lecture 13:Terrible Swift Sword: The Period of Confederate Ascendency, 1861-1862. Yale Courses.

Comment at about 24 minutes.>

If David Blight says the South had only produced 19 locomotives by 1860, he needs to talk to David Bright. The true number is closer to 65.

 

[DaveBrt]

In the history of the War of Logistics of the CW, I understand not one RR Engine or a single RR track was produced by the South, during the War.

Both Tredegar and Markham Iron Works (Atlanta) could have made rails during the war except for two things -- lack of iron (not enough men to dig and smelt it) and not enough men to run all the parts of both facilities at full speed. Making locomotives is very manpower intensive and the South could not afford the pull men from making guns to put them to making locomotives.

Little fact: Shelby Iron Works made enough flat rail to lay 5 miles of track from the main line to their plant in late '64.

 

[WJC]

If David Blight says the South had only produced 19 locomotives by 1860, he needs to talk to David Bright. The true number is closer to 65.

Thanks for your response.
"If David Blight says...." Did you watch the video? You can hear his remarks in context.
I am not familiar with Mr. Bright. I certainly would like to see a more accurate figure if you can provide your source....

 

[DaveBrt]

Thanks for your response.
"If David Blight says...." Did you watch the video? You can hear his remarks in context.
I am not familiar with Mr. Bright. I certainly would like to see a more accurate figure if you can provide your source....

My source is the collection of "locomotives produced by US manufacturers" put together by the Railway and Locomotive Historical Society, mostly in the 1940's. Tredegar alone produced about 50 and there were other companies in Alexandria and Petersburg. I'm on the road and cannot give you details, but you can find out who I am by checking my web site: www.csa-railroads.com

 

[WJC]

Since the majority of railroads were in the Northern area of the US why not standardize on on that size?

Possibly because-though many northern railroads were the same gauge- not all were and there was not yet consensus on the standard. Even by 1876, for example, three northern railroads, the Lackawanna, Erie, and Erie subsidiary Atlantic & Great Western were still six foot gauge.

 

[WJC]

My source is the collection of "locomotives produced by US manufacturers" put together by the Railway and Locomotive Historical Society, mostly in the 1940's. Tredegar alone produced about 50 and there were other companies in Alexandria and Petersburg. I'm on the road and cannot give you details, but you can find out who I am by checking my web site: www.csa-railroads.com

Thanks for your response and reference information.
My apology: your referring to yourself in third person threw me....

 

[OpnCoronet]

Both Tredegar and Markham Iron Works (Atlanta) could have made rails during the war except for two things -- lack of iron (not enough men to dig and smelt it) and not enough men to run all the parts of both facilities at full speed. Making locomotives is very manpower intensive and the South could not afford the pull men from making guns to put them to making locomotives.
Little fact: Shelby Iron Works made enough flat rail to lay 5 miles of track from the main line to their plant in late '64.

That was the confederacy's basic problem, too much to do and not enough to do it with. Improvisation was all they had and it was not nearly enough.

 

[leftyhunter]

That was the confederacy's basic problem, too much to do and not enough to do it with. Improvisation was all they had and it was not nearly enough.

Could one argue the lack of skilled immigrants played a huge role in the Confederacy not being able to achieve self-sufficiency in manufacturing rails and rail locomotives plus the required maintenance?
Leftyhunter

 

[OpnCoronet]

Could one argue the lack of skilled immigrants played a huge role in the Confederacy not being able to achieve self-sufficiency in manufacturing rails and rail locomotives plus the required maintenance?
Leftyhunter

That would certainly be one of the myriad aspect of the problem that faced the Confederacy. The lack of almost all the basic elements of a modern(mid-nineteenth Century) nation-state. One can, IMO, pick out almost any resource lacking and almost write a book on how it adversely affected the South's ability to win its war for independence.

Southerners performed prodigies of improvisation, but, as noted, it can only last for a short time and points out, that the confederacy was never able to make good on their basic lack of most of the resources required to win a war of Materiale', i.e., essentially, whatever they lacked at the beginning of the War, they lacked at the end of the war.