Camp Douglas

[Rebforever]

What part of the Code was not enforced in regard to prisoners of war?

Check post #52.

 

[Pat Young]

"A prisoner of war is subject to no punishment for being a public enemy, nor is any revenge wreaked upon him by the intentional infliction of any suffering, or disgrace, by cruel imprisonment, want of food, by mutilation, death, or any other barbarity."

You may want to look at Article 59.

 

[archieclement]

You may want to look at Article 59.

Yes do you have some list of prisoners specifically charged and convicted of some crime? If not, article 56 would seem the relevant article for prisoners convicted and charged of nothing........ without even a kangaroo court martial, a POW is just a POW entitled to POW protection

 

[major bill]

General Order is an order it is not covered by

14: To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

We seem to have forum members who do not understand that senior generals in the Army are allowed to write orders. Even low level offices can write orders. Every order an officer writes doe not need to be sent to Congress for approval. General Order 100 was a order of how soldiers would conducted themselves in regards to several things to include how prisoners of war were to be treated. As commander in chief the President has the right to write orders and have them obeyed.

 

[archieclement]

General Order is an order it is not covered by

14: To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

We seem to have forum members who do not understand that senior generals in the Army are allowed to write orders. Even low level offices can write orders. Every order an officer writes doe not need to be sent to Congress for approval. General Order 100 was a order of how soldiers would conducted themselves in regards to several things to include how prisoners of war were to be treated. As commander in chief the President has the right to write orders and have them obeyed.

Yes and an order for the conduct of Union troops.......that is seldom enforced whether its Union soldiers robbing civilians, or the mistreatment of prisoners, or the destruction of private property, remains not much an order at all...........To be much of a standing or applicable order would require actual enforcement..............otherwise its called lip service

If someone can show me where it was rigorously enforced in relation to the prison camps, or jayhawkers, it may change my opinion.......but when I see little to no enforcement of this "code" "law" or "instructions" or whatever else one wishes to call it, seems rather meaningless as a "code" "law" or "instructions"

 

[Rebforever]

I challenge you to find any contemporary use of the phrase "Lieber code" by Lincoln or the Congress or anyone as a commanding officer in the federal armies. The term "Lieber code" was not used until after the war, but I will wait 4 your links 2 actual quotes that used it prior to May of 1865.

HEADQUARTERS, Cairo, April 25, 1863.

Honorable E. M. STANTON, Secretary of War.

SIR: Your letter of the 21st instant is received. The instructions in it in reference to colored persons "captives of war" have and shall be faithfully carried out. It is not true that I have failed to afford them all the protection in my power "upon the ground that I have no sympathy with abolitionist" or any other ground. Personally I feet a deep sympathy with the colored refugees of the South who have escaped from slavery. I have published under my signature articles 15, 22, 23, and 33 of the code, received by me from General Hitchcock and Doctor Lieber, in the Chicago tribune which is read by all General Grant's forces, believing that article 33 was of vast importance. On taking command of this post General Tuttle took with him the adjutant - general and left very scanty records of the post. He left me no record of his being "authorized to make arrangements with humane and benevolent persons in the State of Illinois to give them (the negroes) employment for their support. " But I have understood that to be the design of the Government and have acted on it. I have given every respectable applicant of a free State permission to take any of these people under my charge to his home on condition that he support them in sickness as well as in health and [with] fair compensation. I have refused to let them be taken to Kentucky or the ports of Missouri opposite to this place...........................

https://ehistory.osu.edu/books/official-records/118/0521

My Hilite

 

[Rebforever]

Doctor Lieber...................

French are no super-refined philosophers in war. If, then, it is the universal usage of war to make prisoners work, and thus reimburse in part the expenditure they cause, the only remaining question for me in

drawing up the little code was--Is there any reason of honor or humanity why this usage should be stopped? There is none whatever. The prisoner is better off for working than rotting in idleness, and if he be put to dangerous or unhealthy work, which, nevertheless, must be done, will anyone say that the captor is obliged to expose his own men to the danger, rather than the enemy..............................

https://ehistory.osu.edu/books/official-records/119/0869
https://ehistory.osu.edu/books/official-records/119/0870

My Hilite.

 

[major bill]

The OP is about Camp Douglas and although discussing the history of the Laws of War, General Order 100, and the "Lieber Code" might be educational and enjoyable, should the discussion not be better on a thread on the subject?

 

[archieclement]

The OP is about Camp Douglas and although discussing the history of the Laws of War, General Order 100, and the "Lieber Code" might be educational and enjoyable, should the discussion not be better on a thread on the subject?

I agree, thought it was rather clear the substance of my post referring to it, was doesn't it seem odd everyone seems in agreement Camp Douglas was inhumane, or as Pat said "The suffering was real as was the negligence, incompetence, and cruelty."

Yet no one was ever held accountable.......although there were supposed "codes" for the humane treatment of prisoners.....Not sure if its my use of supposed that sets some off......but it does seem no one was ever held accountable for Camp Douglas......or other camps as well.....I would think no one being held accountable is as much a travesty as the conditions and treatment. Its what allowed the conditions and treatment to continue...............

 

[DanSBHawk]

"A prisoner of war is subject to no punishment for being a public enemy, nor is any revenge wreaked upon him by the intentional infliction of any suffering, or disgrace, by cruel imprisonment, want of food, by mutilation, death, or any other barbarity."

The documentary showed intentional suffering....just selecting a location already known to be unsuitable from it being a training camp would be intentional. Obviously something everyone here so far seems to agree was inhumane would certainly qualify as cruel imprisonment. Shooting a black confederate for simply being black.....would also seem to qualify.....as would its death rate......

How about refusing to consider a black union soldier as an actual soldier due equal POW status?

This discussion about the POW camps avoids the real reason the exchange cartel broke down... the refusal of the confederates to recognize black union soldiers as legitimate combatants.

Say what you will about northern and southern racism during the 19th century, it was the southern racist rage against black union soldiers that doomed the exchange cartel, and thus directly created the horrific conditions in the POW camps.

 

[major bill]

The problem is that the break down of the exchange cartel may have impacted the suffering of prisoners at Camp Douglas, but there is plenty to look at at Camp Douglas before the exchange cartel broke down. Part of this occurred before General Order 100 was published.

I do not believe the Union military official were properly prepared for the number of prisoners that were sent to Camp Douglas, both before and after the exchange cartel issues. This is not offered as an excuse to let the Union off the hook. The fact that Union military officials greatly underestimated the flow of captured enemy soldiers is the responsibility of the military officials who were responsible for estimating the flow of prisoners of war.

Both sides used this "we didn't plan for so many prisoners" as a get out of jail card. A lack of proper planing only goes so far and in the end fails because the military officials on both sides had an obligation to make proper plans for the capture and holding of prisoners.

 

[Copperhead-mi]

More semantics over substance? Not surprised.........wish me to call it section 14, or line 14, or give me your address so I can come over and hold your hand and show you where the power to set laws for the military is specifically given to Congress and not the executive branch?

So are you claiming a general order has no legal bearing within the military?

 

[archieclement]

How about refusing to consider a black union soldier as an actual soldier due equal POW status?

This discussion about the POW camps avoids the real reason the exchange cartel broke down... the refusal of the confederates to recognize black union soldiers as legitimate combatants.

Say what you will about northern and southern racism during the 19th century, it was the southern racist rage against black union soldiers that doomed the exchange cartel, and thus directly created the horrific conditions in the POW camps.

I would assume shooting him when he walked in would equate to the Union not giving blacks equal POW status also

What caused the horrific conditions in Camp Douglas was the Union authorities and guards at Camp Douglas, and a lackadaisical command that ignored it, no one else.

What has always disturbed me somewhat is theres a sizable portion who when referring to injustice or inhumanity only refer to others.......I think what should be recognized is we are no more immune then those of other countries of committing the same......I have heard many people over the years say "that would never happen here" apparently not realizing it has happened here already

 

[scone]

John M. Copley's : "A Sketch of the Battle of Franklin, Tenn. ; with Reminiscences of Camp Douglas" is a nice read..

 

[archieclement]

So are you claiming a general order has no legal bearing within the military?

Yes if its not being enforced, it has little bearing. That applies to any law, such as civil right laws in the south post reconstruction, doesn't have to be military at all...... But to have a legal bearing requires actually enforcing the law/code/instruction ect, otherwise its simply meaningless lip service

Many towns today have old outdated laws on the books that simply arent enforced, they have little legal bearing today despite never having been struck from the books.......bearing requires actual enforcement

 

[DanSBHawk]

I would assume shooting him when he walked in would equate to the Union not giving blacks equal POW status also

What caused the horrific conditions in Camp Douglas was the Union authorities and guards at Camp Douglas, and a lackadaisical command that ignored it, no one else.

What has always disturbed me somewhat is theres a sizable portion who when referring to injustice or inhumanity only refer to others.......I think what should be recognized is we are no more immune then those of other countries of committing the same......I have heard many people over the years say "that would never happen here" apparently not realizing it has happened here already

Yes it has happened here. Unfortunately the navel-gazing by partisans appears to be more about throwing blame at the other side rather than understanding why it happened in the first place.

 

[DanSBHawk]

The problem is that the break down of the exchange cartel may have impacted the suffering of prisoners at Camp Douglas, but there is plenty to look at at Camp Douglas before the exchange cartel broke down. Part of this occurred before General Order 100 was published.

I do not believe the Union military official were properly prepared for the number of prisoners that were sent to Camp Douglas, both before and after the exchange cartel issues. This is not offered as an excuse to let the Union off the hook. The fact that Union military officials greatly underestimated the flow of captured enemy soldiers is the responsibility of the military officials who were responsible for estimating the flow of prisoners of war.

Both sides used this "we didn't plan for so many prisoners" as a get out of jail card. A lack of proper planing only goes so far and in the end fails because the military officials on both sides had an obligation to make proper plans for the capture and holding of prisoners.

How much of the problem was ignorance of how close quarters can spread disease?

An earlier post stated that POW's at Camp Douglas were given sufficient calories if not sufficient nutrition. How much of the problem was ignorance of the importance of nutrition? There is little doubt that mistakes were made. How much was due to incompetence, and how much due to actual indifference and malice towards the prisoners?

I understand the partisans would like to make it all about malice.

 

[archieclement]

Yes it has happened here. Unfortunately the navel-gazing by partisans appears to be more about throwing blame at the other side rather than understanding why it happened in the first place.

There i agree, and its simply man's inhumanity to man, and if one drops the partisanship one realizes both sides were susceptible to it whether in the ACW or any other war. Wouldnt disagree only navel gazers pretend to assign blame to only one. Why if one has read many of my posts I generally recognise both did the same things......and don't find one any better or worse then the other.

If anything I hold my country more accountable, because it is my country. Not really all that concerned about defunct or other countries lowering their ideals or standards.

 

[scone]

There i agree, and its simply man's inhumanity to man, and if one drops the partisanship one realizes both sides were susceptible to it whether in the ACW or any other war. Wouldn't disagree only navel gazers pretend to assign blame to only one. Why if one has read many of my posts I generally recognize both did the same things......and don't find one any better or worse then the other.

If anything I hold my country more accountable, because it is my country. Not really all that concerned about defunct or other countries lowering their ideals or standards.

Human kindness …. is all we need in war zones … you name its... happened over the years … towns left with wounded to be taken in

 

[Rebforever]

How much of the problem was ignorance of how close quarters can spread disease?

An earlier post stated that POW's at Camp Douglas were given sufficient calories if not sufficient nutrition. How much of the problem was ignorance of the importance of nutrition? There is little doubt that mistakes were made. How much was due to incompetence, and how much due to actual indifference and malice towards the prisoners?

I understand the partisans would like to make it all about malice.

At the beginning of being a prison, Douglas prisoners were helped getting somewhat the right food from local people which was later stopped.