Bugle with a Provenance?

[CW Watch & Sword Guy]

Here is an interesting item for sale. My question: Would you trust the claimed provenance?

http://www.horsesoldier.com/products/military-accoutrements/26503

I have no experience with Civil War bugles. As a former trumpet player, I have always been drawn to them, though.

 

[Mike Serpa]

Here is an interesting item for sale. My question: Would you trust the claimed provenance?

http://www.horsesoldier.com/products/military-accoutrements/26503

I have no experience with Civil War bugles. As a former trumpet player, I have always been drawn to them, though.

I don't know the company and do not want to impugn it's reputation. The title is described as: REGULATION BRASS BUGLE IDENTIFIED TO MEDAL OF HONOR RECIPIENT AND NATIONAL GAR COMMANDER WILMON BLACKMAR. What does "identified to" to mean? No record of successive ownership is given. No mention of it being in his family for 150 plus years. Is the brass bugle from the Civil War years? Did he play the bugle? I have no knowledge of bugles but a list of Blackmar's promotions in the war and in the GAR is not good enough for me.

Here is a photo of him from the LOC

"Photograph shows portrait of Union veteran Captain Wilmon Whilldin Blackmar of Co. K, 15th Pennsylvania Cavalry Regiment and Co. H, 1st West Virginia Cavalry Regiment, standing next to the chair in which General Ulysses S. Grant sat during General Robert E. Lee's surrender, presented to Blackmar by his friend and comrade Major General Henry Capehart."

 

[Billw12280]

The Horse Soldier is a very reputable dealer and I for one trust them. If you are interested in the bugle shoot them an email or give them a call, they would be happy to tell you more about the provenance.

 

[CW Watch & Sword Guy]

The Horse Soldier is a very reputable dealer and I for one trust them. If you are interested in the bugle shoot them an email or give them a call, they would be happy to tell you more about the provenance.

I have no reason to doubt their honesty, either. I just bought a couple of nice items from them a few weeks ago. I am in process of contacting them about the item to get more information.

 

[Package4]

The bugle is a regulation Civil War period piece and no doubt belonged to Blackmar, it is doubtful that he used or even owned this bugle while in service. The bugle was most likely given to him while he was a GAR post commander or even GAR Commander. The Horse Soldier is a very reputable establishment and when they make a claim, they have documentary literature to back it up. Wes Small, would be the one to ask at the Horse Soldier (Correction I saw the initial SS after the bugle description Sam Small would be the one to ask). I would imagine this was part of Blackmar's effects when he died and handed down through the family.

The bugle appears to be copper and the going rate for a Civil War bugle in this shape is $3,500, so they have not added additional value for the provenance. A "Klemm Bros. Phila", is more preferable, but Horstman will do as well.

 

[CW Watch & Sword Guy]

The bugle is a regulation Civil War period piece and no doubt belonged to Blackmar, it is doubtful that he used or even owned this bugle while in service. The bugle was most likely given to him while he was a GAR post commander or even GAR Commander. The Horse Soldier is a very reputable establishment and when they make a claim, they have documentary literature to back it up. Wes Small, would be the one to ask at the Horse Soldier (Correction I saw the initial SS after the bugle description Sam Small would be the one to ask). I would imagine this was part of Blackmar's effects when he died and handed down through the family.

The bugle appears to be copper and the going rate for a Civil War bugle in this shape is $3,500, so they have not added additional value for the provenance. A "Klemm Bros. Phila", is more preferable, but Horstman will do as well.

Thank you. Why do you think Blackmar never used the bugle in service - because he wasn't a bugler?

If so, that means the bugle probably wasn't used by the 15th PA Cavalry at all, which considerably dampens my enthusiasm.

 

[Package4]

Thank you. Why do you think Blackmar never used the bugle in service - because he wasn't a bugler?

If so, that means the bugle probably wasn't used by the 15th PA Cavalry at all, which considerably dampens my enthusiasm.

Correct, but research may prove otherwise, I was unable to find that he was ever a bugler and that is a very specific duty/designation.

Wilmon Whilldin Blackmar

Residence Boston MA; 21 years old.

Enlisted on 8/30/1862 at Philadelphia, PA as a Corporal.

On 8/30/1862 he mustered into "K" Co. PA 15th Cavalry
He was discharged for promotion on 3/18/1864

On 3/18/1864 he was commissioned into "H" Co. WV 1st Cavalry
He was Mustered Out on 7/8/1865


Promotions:
* Sergt 3/1/1863
* 1st Sergt 5/5/1863
* Lieut 3/18/1864 (As of WV 1st Cav)
* Capt 3/17/1865


Other Information:
born 7/25/1841 in Bristol, Bucks County, PA
Member of GAR Post # 113 (Edward W. Kinsely) in Boston, MA
Held GAR Offices:
* National Commander-in-Chief from 1904 to 1905
* Dept of MA Commander for 1902
* Dept of MA Sr Vice-Commander for 1901
* Dept of MA Jr Vice-Commander for 1900
* Post Trustee Relief Fund from 1876 to 1878 # 113
* Post Commander for 1870 # 113
died 7/16/1905 in Boise, ID
Buried: Cedar Grove Cemetery, Dorchester, MA
Gravesite: Sec 10; lot 52; #6

Medal of Honor Information:
He was awarded the Medal of Honor
for action on 4/1/1865 at Five Forks, VA.
(Without orders, lead a successful advance upon the enemy)

After the War he lived in Hingham, MA

 

[Package4]

There were three buglers that I can ascertain that were with Co K; William M Murdock, who enlisted as a Bugler, Jacob Hewitt and Robert Jordan, who were both promoted to Bugler after enlistment. I do not show Blackmar as being promoted to Bugler, in fact he was enlisted or mustered in as a Corporal, which I believe is above a Bugler's rank. John Rex, also shows up as a Bugler in K, but subsequently transferred to C.

 

[CW Watch & Sword Guy]

There were three buglers that I can ascertain that were with Co K; William M Murdock, who enlisted as a Bugler, Jacob Hewitt and Robert Jordan, who were both promoted to Bugler after enlistment. I do not show Blackmar as being promoted to Bugler, in fact he was enlisted or mustered in as a Corporal, which I believe is above a Bugler's rank. John Rex, also shows up as a Bugler in K, but subsequently transferred to C.

Thank you for your excellent research.

 

[James N.]

The Horse Soldier is a very reputable dealer and I for one trust them. If you are interested in the bugle shoot them an email or give them a call, they would be happy to tell you more about the provenance.

I have no reason to doubt their honesty, either. I just bought a couple of nice items from them a few weeks ago. I am in process of contacting them about the item to get more information.

I agree wholeheartedly - however, having said that, I think this item from their website which I found while looking at the bugle is over-priced, especially in light of the hit collecting took during the recession of '08 from which it has yet to recover. I visited there earlier this year and was floored by some of their prices on other things as well; Colt revolvers similar to ones I purchased recently in Dallas were priced at least half again as much as I paid. I believe the only things I've actually bought from them are a couple of Don Troiani prints which I thought were priced reasonably. Being located in Gettysburg and catering to its tourists it's not the place to look for any kind of "deal," so buyer beware in that respect!

http://www.horsesoldier.com/products/edged-weapons/swords/6993

 

[Package4]

I agree wholeheartedly - however, having said that, I think this item from their website which I found while looking at the bugle is over-priced, especially in light of the hit collecting took during the recession of '08 from which it has yet to recover. I visited there earlier this year and was floored by some of their prices on other things as well; Colt revolvers similar to ones I purchased recently in Dallas were priced at least half again as much as I paid. I believe the only things I've actually bought from them are a couple of Don Troiani prints which I thought were priced reasonably. Being located in Gettysburg and catering to its tourists it's not the place to look for any kind of "deal," so buyer beware in that respect!

http://www.horsesoldier.com/products/edged-weapons/swords/6993

Many of their items are on consignment with the price fixed by the seller, if you go there enough and know what you are looking for and at, you can come away with incredible deals. A good friend bought a Maryland belt and cartridge box, both complete with plates for far less than they are worth and they were i'd to a soldier in 2nd MD CS!

 

[rebed19th]

There is a excellent article in North South Trader magazine titled Collecting Civil War Bugles by Chris Nelson Vol 29
issue 24, 2003. The article is available on line free. The issue that I have with this piece is the makers stamp mark. It looks like there are double strikes on some letters which has me concerned. In the article it says Horstmann imported their bugles. That could explain why the stamp looks the way it does. Perhaps quality was not that important to them. I also looked up Horstmann in the directory of American Military Dealers & Makers and there is no mention of them making bugles. I have bought items for the Horse Soldier and have been very satisfied, they are a very reputable business. There would have to be absolute positive documentation for me to buy the story and purchase this piece. I would do all the research I could possibly do before laying out the cash. Just my feelings.

 

[Ralph Heinz]

When you pound (with a hammer) a metal stamp against another metal object (like the thin copper of the bugle's bell), you sometimes get a double strike as the stamp bounces slightly and leaves what you see in the photo of the Horstmann stamp. It can also happen when you have a curved surface like the bell of a bugle. There's nothing wrong with the marking on that bugle. I've done silver work and had a stamp bounce and leave a double impression.

 

[Ralph Heinz]

As to the price -- check out past month's items on Dave Taylor's Civil War Antiques web site and you'll find that in the last year or two he's sold two fabulous copper single coil bugles for $2,250 each and one was made and marked by Stratton & Foote and the other by Horstmann. I paid less than that for the bugle I bought and posted here recently and it was one Mark Elrod, a noted CW musical instrument expert, had sold to a friend of mine years ago at a Gettysburg CW show.

I could post a photo of one of those bugles from Dave Taylor's web site but might be infringing on copyrights so I won't do so. Anyone interested can find it easily enough on his web site.

I think the single reason that particular bugle discussed above hasn't sold is the price. The dealer however is highly reputable. I just can't see a bugler becoming a Captain. A bugler is essentially a musician -- not a combatant though they were issued a sabre and revolver if serving in the cavalry.

 

[CW Watch & Sword Guy]

Thanks to everyone for their knowledgeable responses.