Bows and arrows

[Dullknife]

Here is an account of Union allied folks...it is in the context of a dance but I believe the weapons in display would have been used...Link
<edited by moderator to clean up the link>

Bows at Pea Ridge? Wasn't it suggested that the CSA natives fight in the "traditional" fashion?...
..https://books.google.com/books?id=OqeWDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT240&lpg=PT240&dq=Indians+used+bows+and+arrows+at+Battle+of+Pea+Ridge&source=bl&ots=XQk85AdL5s&sig=ACfU3U0TJ_sxsLo1PfqHdacvrfVIl6MhSw&hl=en&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=2ahUKEwixu-XPrvDoAhV3lnIEHeRfBJEQ6AEwBXoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=Indians%20used%20bows%20and%20arrows%20at%20Battle%20of%20Pea%20Ridge&f=false

 

[Rhea Cole]

It is interesting that the confederation of native people had Henry's & Spencer's & Custer's men had single shot rifles. I found it fascinating that individuals armed with Henry's were moving so much. The spent shell casings & the billets showed is fascinating evidence. They have even collected DNA from spent bullets.

Had Custer's command been armed with Spencers, they might have achieved fire superiority over their attackers. As it was, the raw hide bandoliers caused jams that effectively disarmed Custer's men. The nose bags of bullets carried by Wilder's men carried would not have jammed their weapons.

I don't consider an arrow launched from a compound bow at close range passing through tissue of a Buffalo an impossibility. However, managing to not hit a bone would be quite a trick. I have seen an arrow go through the neck of a deer, for example. As Dr Bill says, any arrow wound was potentially deadly.

As the photographic (very graphic) evidence in the post I contributed to this thread, the confederation of native people's clearly had bows & war arrows. Sadly, that is not the only example that exists in case anyone wants to see more examples from my folder of horrors.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Just because we have gone off the theme of this thread about as far as we can go, my research has stumbled on Orkney Islanders armed with crossbows during the Napoleonic wars. I love history, it never fails to amaze.

 

[Dullknife]

Just because we have gone off the theme of this thread about as far as we can go, my research has stumbled on Orkney Islanders armed with crossbows during the Napoleonic wars. I love history, it never fails to amaze.

Rhea,

Please share whatever you can.

 

[johan_steele]

NUG Normally Usually Generally and PEC Period Everyday Correct are mantras strived for by the living history community.

In my eyes there is very little worse than the Confederate Cavman with a Henry rifle, six pistols a sword and no horse. Though white men pretending to be Indian comes a close second.

My experience with Lakota, Cheyenne and Chippewa interested in history has been people trying to get things right. As an example I know a man, son of the man mentioned up thread, who has spent the last decade and change researching his ancestors. One of which was noted to be a superb hunter from horseback. I've handled and fired the bow he uses which is copied closely from an original. It is a splendid short bow ideal for hunting from horseback. There is no way it is powerful enough to go through a Bison or man. I've also handled the Remington pistol said ancestor acquired at the Little Big Horn.

I did my thesis on the Mongol impact upon the world. I am quite familiar with both the horse/bow peoples of both Central Asia and North America. While the Lakota were well known for having the skill to shoot grasshoppers in flight the Mongols and others were known to bring down birds in flight and to place arrows through the eye holes of helmets. The Mongol bow, arguably the most effective bow in history, would not penetrate all the way through a bison. The best comparison to be made isn't the bow but the horse on the culture.

Was the bow used by Indians at the time of the ACW? Yes, it was. I've seen no evidence of it used by Indians fighting on either the CS or US side of the argument. And the closer connected via trade the more rapidly the bow was eclipsed by the firearm. The bow was still utilized for hunting as unlike bullets and powder arrows can be reused.

One of the things that shocked me when I lived among the Lakota was the view of other tribes even today. The Crow are still despised more so than the white man. The eastern tribes... there was interest and respect for tribes like Seminole and Iroquois. When I asked why those two tribes in particular were singled out the answer surprised me. "They fought." Was the answer. The difference even today is evident to any who were to visit the Cheyenne River or Rosebud Reservations.

There were something like 900 different tribal groups in North America. Warrior cultures were not the majority. But the warrior cultures... boy howdy. There were Ojibwa, some Chippewa and a few Dakota as well as numbers of other tribes counted among the ranks of the US in the ACW and they generally gave good service. Stand Watie was the last CS command to give up. All deserve respect.

The Ojibwa, Chippewa & Dakota men who served with the US carried the M1817, P53, M1855 Rifles and finally 1861 series arms. The Indian Home Guard were armed with the M1817 and various muskets.

I'm less familiar with the arms carried by the command of Stand Watie but understand it to have been a hodgepodge like most other trans Mississippi units. I'm unaware of the bow counted among those weapons.

 

[Dullknife]

Thank you for the insult. The part where you call me a wannabe. Kinda humorous. It's coming from a guy who probably has never had any actual combat experience but pretends to be a soldier. Isnt everyone on this board a wannabe? It's all pretend. You dont know me, my interests, or how much contact I have had with native folks. You seem like you think that you are the white rep for native america.

It must be good to know everything. Have a good evening.

 

[johan_steele]

Thank you for the insult. The part where you call me a wannabe. Kinda humorous. It's coming from a guy who probably has never had any actual combat experience but pretends to be a soldier. Isnt everyone on this board a wannabe? It's all pretend. You dont know me, my interests, or how much contact I have had with native folks. You seem like you think that you are the white rep for native america.

It must be good to know everything. Have a good evening.

You need to actually read posts. I didn't call you a Wannabe, if I implied it that wasn't my intention. If you are that's your problem not mine.

I was going to applaud you for making the effort to do some research. Now I'm wondering if you just wanted answers that reinforce what you want vs reality and actual history.

If you're going to do a Native American impression do it but do the research. You opened the thread with a question and seem offended to get answers you that don't agree with your perception.

Incidentally, my Lakota name translates to Windrunner. I'm not Lakota, went to high school on the Cheyenne River Reservation in SD. I was adopted by a Lakota family by the name of Bald Eagle. I've known a lot of veterans and am one. there is a fine line between drama and farce. I respect and appreciate those who try to get it right. Too many don't.

I don't know you from Adam. The point of Living History is to do the best representation possible. A lot of that requires research. Some are willing to help. You asked, I made the mistake of thinking you wanted information and possibly the benefit of someone else's research. That I know the difference between Dakota and Crow should have been a help... apparently not.

 

[Rhea Cole]

I gotta admit that the most impressive living historians I ever met was a group of red men, literally. These red men who painted themselves red from shaved headed top knot to belt line, had multiple ear piercings. If memory serves, they were Shawnee warriors from the early 1700's. They were all white guys from a small town in Ohio (?). They looked ferocious as all get out. I was blacksmithing & made some arrowheads to a very particular pattern for them. One of them told me that he wore a wig to work during the living history season & felt more like he was wearing a costume then. His wife made him wash the stage paint off in the back yard with a hose because it made a fantastic mess the first time he washed it off in the shower.

One of the things I love about lining history is how generous we are with what we have learned. Sharing our knowledge is what we do. So, how about we not dive off into the history police black hole & keep it to the 10' rule, ok?

 

[Dullknife]

Here is an interesting account by A.W. Sparks that discusses the use of bows by Confederate Indians, further west....Please refer to chapter 4....(not just bows are discussed but dress, and one or two old school war customs)....

http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~maddox/genealogy/sparks.txt

 

[Glen_C]

Cleaning up this link a bit

The Stonewall Brigade

A Novel of the American Civil War David Preston was an officer in the U. S. Army—before Virginia seceded from the Union. Then, with most of his fellow Virginians, he offered himself in the service of the Confederacy . . . Assigned to Col. T. J. Jackson's 1st brigade, at Harper's Ferry, he...

books.google.com

Anyway, an example of arrows through a bison is shown in the Plenty Coups bio written by Linderman

Plenty-coups: Chief of the Crows

"An exciting account by one of the last great chiefs." …

www.goodreads.com

IIRC, it was when arrows were driven downward through a bison's throat, just ahead of their shoulder blades. In other words, point blank and avoiding bone.

I'l leave it at that but mention that the chief was there and did that.

Cheers
GC

 

[Dullknife]

 

[Dullknife]

An article on firearms and bows from Fort Union. Catlin made note of arrows going through bison....https://www.nps.gov/fous/learn/historyculture/arrows-guns-and-buffalo.htm

 

[Rhea Cole]

George Catlin is a man who would know.​

 

[Dullknife]

View attachment 356549
George Catlin is a man who would know.​

That's a very cool image.

 

[Dullknife]

An article on firearms and bows from Fort Union. Catlin made note of arrows going through bison....https://www.nps.gov/fous/learn/historyculture/arrows-guns-and-buffalo.htm

Here is an account by war leader Gall of the Lakota. It describes native fighting at the Greasy Grass aka Little Big Horn. After his men used up their cartridges they went to their BOWS and warclubs. Apparently the older style weapons were still of value/useful for combat purposes. This was 1876.....https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/hh/1b/hh1o.htm