Blue water navy

[atlantis]

Given the well-known constraints on the confederate navy should they have focused their efforts on creating a blue water navy.
With a mission of upending the blockade instead of merchant raiding.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Given the well-known constraints on the confederate navy should they have focused their efforts on creating a blue water navy.
With a mission of upending the blockade instead of merchant raiding.

Atlantis, There is no need to discuss this topic. For good reason the commerce raiders were built in GB & manned with English crews.

The first link is to the NavSource Photo Archive "Old Navy Steam & Sail" index. It contains an alphabetical list of every commissioned vessel in both the USN & Confederate Navy. There are images & histories of each vessel. It is a fascinating source that is very easy to use. Frankly, just looking at the list of one navy vs the list of the other will speak volumes.

Link:

NavSource "Old Navy" Steam and Sail Index

The Monitors, there is no Confederate counterpart, are listed here.

Link:

NavSource Online: Battleship Photo Archive

The Confederacy had three blue water ports on the East Coast. There were no ship yards or trained craftsmen who could have built a blue water navy to confront the USN. The same was true of littoral or brown water vessels.

There was no supply of cordage in the Confederacy. In the 1860's sailing ships required miles of rope of varying dimension from twine to 8" hawsers. Sails were made of woven hemp fiber. The cultivation of hemp was laborious in the extreme. Then the hemp stems had to be processed & converted to finished products on rope walks.

The Blue Grass region of Kentucky, adjacent to the Ohio River was the source of hemp products. 40% of the state's agricultural exports were hemp products. The vast inventory of hemp fiber products went north on the RR & eastward on the Erie Canal to shipyards & chandlers in New England & onwards. A shortage of cordage hampered CSA shipping throughout the war. No rope, no sails , no caulking, no ships.

Because of an extraordinary deposit of copper in Michigan, there were almost no copper mills in the CSA. Only the serendipitous wreck of a ship supplied telegraph wire. Without copper to sheet wooden hulls, shipworm would make short work of any blue water vessel.


This American Battlefield Trust article begins with the massive build up initiated by the USN in the first months of the conflict. Not only were existing warships outfitted & numerous new vessels laid down hundreds of merchant vessels were acquired for conversion to blockading gunboats. The histories of these converted merchantmen are the Old Navy Steam & Sail index. In a phenomenally short period of time the active navy list increased exponentially. Anything like that was physically & financially impossible for the Confederacy. Read more here.

Link:

The Navies of the Civil War

A brief summary of naval history during the Civil War.

www.battlefields.org

The NavSource Index includes every USN commissioned ship from the Revolution to today. You can look up & wonder where an entire afternoon has gone to. RC

 

[leftyhunter]

Given the well-known constraints on the confederate navy should they have focused their efforts on creating a blue water navy.
With a mission of upending the blockade instead of merchant raiding.

A terrible idea for the Confederacy. The Confederacy lacked the money. manpower and skills to build a proper blue water navy plus it was to late to do so. A blue water navy can not fight a peer enemy by starting from scratch.
A blue water navy has to be at full strength before war starts.
The best the Confederacy could do was build a few blue water ships overseas with mostly British sailors armed with British cannons and because the Confederacy has no allies or diplomatic recognition it can't properly service its ships for maintenance and repairs which takes considerably more time the 72 hours granted by beligerency rights.
The best the Confederacy could do was to try to build a visual and riverine navy to break the Union blockade and despite the Confedracies best efforts it was a bridge to far.
Leftyhunter

 

[Library Lady]

To build on what @Rhea Cole is saying, per Copilot AI, here is what the Kriegsmarine had at the start of World War II, that is, with 20 years warning:

German Navy Ships at the Start of World War II (1939)

At the outbreak of World War II in September 1939, the Kriegsmarine (German Navy) had a mix of pre-war vessels, newly completed capital ships, and modern cruisers and destroyers. Below is a representative list of major surface warships in commission at that time Wikipedia+1.

Capital Ships

• Bismarck class battleships
  
  • Bismarck – launched 1939, commissioned Aug 1940
  • Tirpitz – launched 1939, commissioned Feb 1941
• Scharnhorst class battlecruisers
  
  • Scharnhorst – commissioned Jan 1939
  • Gneisenau – commissioned May 1938

Pre-dreadnought Battleships (Deutschland class) Wikipedia

• Hannover – commissioned Oct 1907
• Schleswig-Holstein – commissioned Jul 1908
• Schlesien – commissioned May 1908

Heavy Cruisers military-history.fandom.com

• Deutschland (later Lützow) – commissioned Jan 1931
• Admiral Scheer – commissioned Nov 1933
• Admiral Graf Spee – commissioned Jan 1936
• Admiral Hipper – commissioned Aug 1937
• Blücher – commissioned Sep 1937
• Prinz Eugen – commissioned Aug 1938

Light Cruisers military-history.fandom.com

• Emden – commissioned 1925
• Königsberg – commissioned 1925
• Karlsruhe – commissioned 1927
• Köln – commissioned 1928
• Leipzig – commissioned 1929
• Nürnberg – commissioned 1934

Destroyers military-history.fandom.com

• Type 1934 (Z1–Z4)
  
  • Z1 Leberecht Maass – 1937
  • Z2 Georg Thiele – 1937
  • Z3 Max Schultz – 1937
  • Z4 Richard Beitzen – 1937
• Type 1934A (Z5–Z16) – commissioned 1937–1939
• Type 1936 (Z17–Z22) – commissioned 1937–1938
• Type 1936A (Narvik) (Z23–Z30) – commissioned 1938–1939
• Type 1936A (Mob) (Z31–Z34, Z37–Z39) – commissioned 1939
• Type 1936B (Z35–Z36, Z43–Z45) – commissioned 1939

Torpedo Boats

• Mai class and other Schnellboote (S-boats) – various types in service military-history.fandom.com.

Notable Notes

• The Graf Zeppelin was launched in 1936 but never completed Naval History.Net. Note per LL: The third Bismarck class ship that was being turned into an aircraft carrier (hence the name).
• The Deutschland was renamed Lützow in 1940 Wikipedia.
• The Admiral Graf Spee was scuttled in 1939 after the Battle of the River Plate Wikipedia. Note per LL: There are some interesting parallels between this ship and the CSS Alabama.
• The Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were lost in 1943–1945 Wikipedia.

This list covers the major surface combatants in the Kriegsmarine at the start of WWII, excluding submarines and auxiliary vessels.

How well did that work out for them? There was never a fleet-to-fleet engagement. The capital ships were all pretty much used as commerce raiders. Even the Bismarck (with or without its battlecruiser friends) was supposed to attack convoys, not take on most of the available Royal Navy in the North Atlantic and the Western Mediterranean.

If you want to get into the hassles involved with building a navy, Robert K. Massie's book Dreadnought: Britain, Germany, and the Coming of the Great War is a very good description of how Germany, basically a land power, tried to take on Great Britain at sea prior to World War I. That didn't work out so well, either, even though they did have fleet engagements during the war.

 

[Rhea Cole]

To build on what @Rhea Cole is saying, per Copilot AI, here is what the Kriegsmarine had at the start of World War II, that is, with 20 years warning:

German Navy Ships at the Start of World War II (1939)

At the outbreak of World War II in September 1939, the Kriegsmarine (German Navy) had a mix of pre-war vessels, newly completed capital ships, and modern cruisers and destroyers. Below is a representative list of major surface warships in commission at that time Wikipedia+1.

Capital Ships

• Bismarck class battleships
  • Bismarck – launched 1939, commissioned Aug 1940
  • Tirpitz – launched 1939, commissioned Feb 1941
• Scharnhorst class battlecruisers
  • Scharnhorst – commissioned Jan 1939
  • Gneisenau – commissioned May 1938

Pre-dreadnought Battleships (Deutschland class) Wikipedia

• Hannover – commissioned Oct 1907
• Schleswig-Holstein – commissioned Jul 1908
• Schlesien – commissioned May 1908

Heavy Cruisers military-history.fandom.com

• Deutschland (later Lützow) – commissioned Jan 1931
• Admiral Scheer – commissioned Nov 1933
• Admiral Graf Spee – commissioned Jan 1936
• Admiral Hipper – commissioned Aug 1937
• Blücher – commissioned Sep 1937
• Prinz Eugen – commissioned Aug 1938

Light Cruisers military-history.fandom.com

• Emden – commissioned 1925
• Königsberg – commissioned 1925
• Karlsruhe – commissioned 1927
• Köln – commissioned 1928
• Leipzig – commissioned 1929
• Nürnberg – commissioned 1934

Destroyers military-history.fandom.com

• Type 1934 (Z1–Z4)
  • Z1 Leberecht Maass – 1937
  • Z2 Georg Thiele – 1937
  • Z3 Max Schultz – 1937
  • Z4 Richard Beitzen – 1937
• Type 1934A (Z5–Z16) – commissioned 1937–1939
• Type 1936 (Z17–Z22) – commissioned 1937–1938
• Type 1936A (Narvik) (Z23–Z30) – commissioned 1938–1939
• Type 1936A (Mob) (Z31–Z34, Z37–Z39) – commissioned 1939
• Type 1936B (Z35–Z36, Z43–Z45) – commissioned 1939

Torpedo Boats

• Mai class and other Schnellboote (S-boats) – various types in service military-history.fandom.com.

Notable Notes

• The Graf Zeppelin was launched in 1936 but never completed Naval History.Net. Note per LL: The third Bismarck class ship that was being turned into an aircraft carrier (hence the name).
• The Deutschland was renamed Lützow in 1940 Wikipedia.
• The Admiral Graf Spee was scuttled in 1939 after the Battle of the River Plate Wikipedia. Note per LL: There are some interesting parallels between this ship and the CSS Alabama.
• The Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were lost in 1943–1945 Wikipedia.

This list covers the major surface combatants in the Kriegsmarine at the start of WWII, excluding submarines and auxiliary vessels.

How well did that work out for them? There was never a fleet-to-fleet engagement. The capital ships were all pretty much used as commerce raiders. Even the Bismarck (with or without its battlecruiser friends) was supposed to attack convoys, not take on most of the available Royal Navy in the North Atlantic and the Western Mediterranean.

If you want to get into the hassles involved with building a navy, Robert K. Massie's book Dreadnought: Britain, Germany, and the Coming of the Great War is a very good description of how Germany, basically a land power, tried to take on Great Britain at sea prior to World War I. That didn't work out so well, either, even though they did have fleet engagements during the war.

Dreadnaught is one of my all time favorite books. It is a window into a world that was determined to destroy itself.

 

[13 IL Cav & 64 GA Inf]

A terrible idea for the Confederacy. The Confederacy lacked the money. manpower and skills to build a proper blue water navy plus it was to late to do so. A blue water navy can not fight a peer enemy by starting from scratch.
A blue water navy has to be at full strength before war starts.
The best the Confederacy could do was build a few blue water ships overseas with mostly British sailors armed with British cannons and because the Confederacy has no allies or diplomatic recognition it can't properly service its ships for maintenance and repairs which takes considerably more time the 72 hours granted by beligerency rights.
The best the Confederacy could do was to try to build a visual and riverine navy to break the Union blockade and despite the Confedracies best efforts it was a bridge to far.
Leftyhunter

Yes indeed. Given that the Confederacy could not even control New Orleans, the concept of manufacturing for a blue water navy was impossible.

 

[atlantis]

I contend it was possible to build the components of a naval industrial complex and a blue water fleet. The confederacy created an arms industry from scratch for example.
It was of utmost importance to keep the ports open and retain control of the rivers, bays, sounds that were for the confederacy what railroads were for the north.

 

[13 IL Cav & 64 GA Inf]

I contend it was possible to build the components of a naval industrial complex and a blue water fleet. The confederacy created an arms industry from scratch for example.
It was of utmost importance to keep the ports open and retain control of the rivers, bays, sounds that were for the confederacy what railroads were for the north.

This gets back to a matter of application of the CSA's limited resources. To apply significant resources to creating such a navy would have been detrimental to providing for the land forces.

 

[atlantis]

Dreadnaught is one of my all time favorite books. It is a window into a world that was determined to destroy itself.

The creation of the imperial navy- [high seas fleet] was more impressive than the fleet built by nazi Germany.
The German navy gave a good account for itself during the first world war; it took the combined allied naval forces to defeat it. If the sailors seduced by Marxism hadn't mutinied it is possible the allied blockade could have been broken.

 

[atlantis]

This gets back to a matter of application of the CSA's limited resources. To apply significant resources to creating such a navy would have been detrimental to providing for the land forces.

Were the resources limited or were they mismanaged, not developed. Iron ore, copper, coal deposits existed in the confederacy.

 

[atlantis]

Without a Blue water navy there is zero chance of victory for the confederacy. The US had the French fleet in the war for independence, but no one was going to help the confederacy.

 

[13 IL Cav & 64 GA Inf]

Were the resources limited or were they mismanaged, not developed. Iron ore, copper, coal deposits existed in the confederacy.

They were indeed limited. Iron ore, for example, existed in central to northern Alabama, and the Confederates enlarged existing iron works and foundries. One of them, Tannehill Iron Works, is less than 20 miles from my house.

 

[atlantis]

They were indeed limited. Iron ore, for example, existed in central to northern Alabama, and the Confederates enlarged existing iron works and foundries. One of them, Tannehill Iron Works, is less than 20 miles from my house.

Were they able to move out product by railroad or water.

 

[13 IL Cav & 64 GA Inf]

They were indeed limited. Iron ore, for example, existed in central to northern Alabama, and the Confederates enlarged existing iron works and foundries. One of them, Tannehill Iron Works, is less than 20 miles from my house.

Actually, iron from the Tannehill works was sent to Selma (and some to Columbus, GA I think) for Naval manufacturing purposes. You could look into that a little and may find it interesting in your thoughts for this thread.

 

[13 IL Cav & 64 GA Inf]

Were they able to move out product by railroad or water.

Rail, built for the purpose.

 

[Library Lady]

If you're going to have a navy, you have to have politicians behind that idea in order to get funding. Kaiser Wilhelm found that out. Even Edward VII and George V had to deal with Parliament for naval appropriations and, maybe surprisingly, it wasn't always a slam dunk for them. Senator Wigfall from Texas went on a rant about all the things the South didn't need or want and one of them was a navy. His reasoning: The South shipped all its overseas product orders on Yankee ships, so the Yankees needed a navy, not the South.

 

[atlantis]

Actually, iron from the Tannehill works was sent to Selma (and some to Columbus, GA I think) for Naval manufacturing purposes. You could look into that a little and may find it interesting in your thoughts for this thread.

I am very impressed by what was achieved at Selma foundry and Tannehill works.
What I see is the potential at some point for standing up a blue water navy.

 

[13 IL Cav & 64 GA Inf]

If you're going to have a navy, you have to have politicians behind that idea in order to get funding. Kaiser Wilhelm found that out. Even Edward VII and George V had to deal with Parliament for naval appropriations and, maybe surprisingly, it wasn't always a slam dunk for them. Senator Wigfall from Texas went on a rant about all the things the South didn't need or want and one of them was a navy. His reasoning: The South shipped all its overseas product orders on Yankee ships, so the Yankees needed a navy, not the South.

That had to be among the least astute reasoning that Wigfall ever had.

 

[atlantis]

It would have been of immense benefit if Norfolk had been retained and fort Pickens taken. That would have provided a solid foundation for fleet bases.

 

[Library Lady]

That had to be among the least astute reasoning that Wigfall ever had.

In the same rant he said the South didn't need or want a manufacturing class, either, so I guess it's good they didn't need a navy. It's hard to build one without a manufacturing class. Tell me you want to be a colony or a third-world country without telling me.