Bible vs. Bible

As far as Jesus making all the OT "obsolete" well...I hesitate to offer a theological point, but Jesus did mention that he was here to "complete" not overturn the law. But alan polk offered several OT justifications for slavery. You can construct both a proslavery and antislavery argument from the Bible with plenty of backing and sincerity. "Both sides prayed to the same God and invoked His aid against the other."

As far as a bible thumping society being cool with thumping slaves, obviously that's been true for most of human history. The moral challenge to American slavery doesn't come from the Bible, its comes from the Enlightenment, and the nation born in the spirit of the Enlightenment, the United States. "All men are created equal," isn't from the Bible.
Excellent post. It's been mentioned several times in this thread that people read what they want to read in the Bible, and I think it's too easy for modern Christians to do that, following the logic:

Slavery is morally wrong.
The Bible is a guide to what's morally right.
Therefore the Bible must be against slavery.

But as you said, it was the Enlightenment and the generally changing times that made people start thinking differently about the morality of slavery, and then those who wanted the Bible to still be their moral guide needed to interpret it to fit.
 
This is from C-SPAN: http://www.c-span.org/video/?324110-1/discussion-slavery-religion

Slavery and Religion
Professor Douglas Thompson, Associate Professor Mercer University-Southern Studies Center, talked about religion and its impact on the relationship between slaves and their owners during the Antebellum period. He cited Nat Turner's 1831 slave rebellion and Frederick Douglass' 1845 memoir as examples of how whites and blacks interpreted biblical passages on slavery. This class is from a course called "Biblical Texts and American History."

- Alan
Thank you for posting this! ... Very interesting stuff.
 

This was written by a priest. I might as well read The Rise and Fall of the Confederate Government or something equally biased on a subject :smile:

And the author does make the mistake to talk about Catholic church and rasism vs. Catholic church and slavery. 2 different issues that fallaciously combined in lots of minds (and for a good reason, rasism was used to justify some slavery - and most of the slavery that occured during the time of the ACW in the US), but totally separate. So one can potentially arguethat rasism is wrong, without taking a stance on slavery.

If you look at places like China (where the slaves were the same race as the masters), slavery legally was abolished in 1909, and practically abolished (mostly) in the 1950s...

 
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How was slavery viewed in the Jewish religious tradition of the 1800's as companied to the Christian tradition of the 1800's? Is there any substantive difference? What about among Protestants and Catholics?
 
Your first quote would be applicable to the Africans that captured and sold people, and those that transported them. That was considered sinful in the eyes of most Southerners.

Translation: Kidnapping people and selling them is evil. But buying the kidnapped, and keeping them and their children under bondage is ok.

Not being judgmental, just trying to clarify what they believed.

- Alan
 
How was slavery viewed in the Jewish religious tradition of the 1800's as companied to the Christian tradition of the 1800's? Is there any substantive difference? What about among Protestants and Catholics?

The religious dogmatic views of slavery in both (Western) Christian and Jewish were established well before the 1800s (and well before the Protestants left the Catholic church) and remained unchanged until much later. Quick difference (and somewhat of an oxymoron) : Jews could not have (previously) free Jewish slaves, but they had to circumcize male slaves and convert (all of them) to Jewdaism. Christians were free to enslave non-christians but they did not have to convert them.

Dogma and practice are 2 different things though... Practice is the result of personal filtering of dogma with individual sensitivities, such as moralilty, point of view, etc. In the US, after the Bill of Rights in 1791 and the de facto separation of Church and State, the various Churches had really removed from political issues, and slavery in the 1800s was a political issue.
 
This is the complete paragraph concerning slavery from Lincoln's 2nd Inaugural Address, and it probably answers - or doesn't answer - the many questions from this thread. He called it an "offence" straight from the Biblical passage (Matthew 18:7); the "woes" within that passage pertain to the extreme seriousness of the offence and the eventual outcome, and from the reading of the 2nd Inaugural it also seems Lincoln is calling no one guiltless, whether from the North or the South. "...one of them would make war rather than let the nation survive," he said, "and the other would accept war rather than let it perish."

"One eighth of the whole population were colored slaves, not distributed generally over the Union, but localized in the Southern part of it. These slaves constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. All knew that this interest was, somehow, the cause of the war. To strengthen, perpetuate, and extend this interest was the object for which the insurgents would rend the Union, even by war; while the government claimed no right to do more than to restrict the territorial enlargement of it. Neither party expected for the war, the magnitude, or the duration, which it has already attained. Neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might cease with, or even before, the conflict itself should cease. Each looked for an easier triumph, and a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces; but let us judge not that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered; that of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes. "Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" If we shall suppose that American Slavery is one of those offences which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South, this terrible war, as the woe due to those by whom the offence came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a Living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope -- fervently do we pray -- that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue, until all the wealth piled by the bond-man's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash, shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said 'the judgments of the Lord, are true and righteous altogether.'"
 
As far as skin color and slavery, Julius Caesar said the Britons made the worst slaves. "They were lazy and could not be taught." And poor old Adolph thought the Ayrians were the "master race."
 
Arguments used by slaveholders before and during the ACW regarding Biblical slavery:

There are numerous passages dealing with the institution in the Old Testament that the slaveholder used in justification: Genesis xx. 14, xxiv. 35, Leviticus, xxv. 45, so on and so on.

God sanctioned Abraham as a slaveholder (Gen. xxiv. 35, xxvi. 12).

The 4th Commandment (exod. Xx. 10) provides rules for masters and slaves on the Sabbath.

Further, Exodus xxi. 2 to 6 provides sanction, it also touches on the year of Jubilee whereby slaves could be freed. However, such Jubilee was reserved only for Hebrew slaves, not gentiles (See Leviticus xxv. 44 to 46). (Slavery was dealt with differently when it came down to Hebrews and gentiles, yet the institution of slavery as "involuntary servitude" was recognized and sanctioned by God. In fact, gentile slaves were heritable property.)

In Numbers, it is clearly stated that the spoils of war included human beings, slaves for life (gentiles), according to the law of Leviticus, ch. xxv. All spoils of war were to be included in the tribute to God (a commandment of God). In verses 40 and 46, we see the tribute of slaves to God along with donkeys, cattle, sheep, etc. These slaves (gentiles) became the property of the ministers of religion. The supposed exception in Deuteronomy xxiii. 15, 16, only applies, again, to Hebrew slaves, not gentiles. If God demanded tribute of slaves unto Him, Slaveholders would argue, then how can the institution of slavery be morally wrong? It was viewed as a permanent institution; duties between master and slave were defined; the rights of masters protected. And though the Bible does not demand that countries or people own slaves, it is no sin for those to own them.

New Testament – Slavery different from divorce and polygamy. The two latter were expressly condemned in the New Testament (See for example Mathew xix. 3 to 9.) Conversely, domestic slavery is not forbidden in the New Testament, but is permitted, authorized and regulated. The absence of any condemnation of slaveholding in the New Testament was proof to the slaveholders that it was not unlawful.Christ and his apostles preached in the midst of slaves and slaveholders. In the New Testament the apostles give formal enumerations of previous sins of their time. (See Romans i. 29, 31; Galations v. 19-21; Mathew xv. 19; Colossians iii. 8, 9; 2 Timothy iii. 2-4.) The owning of slaves never appears among these sins. To southerners (slaveholders), if it was deemed morally wrong during Jesus' time, why did he not condemn it? In fact, Christ applauds a slaveholder in the New Testament. (See Matthew viii. 5 to 13, and Luke vii. 2-10.)The New Testament teaches that the conditions of a slave, although not desirable for its own sake, has no essential bearing on the Christian life. They cited) 1 Cor. xii. 13, "For by one spirit we are baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free: and have all been made to drink into one Spirit." Further, in Galat. iii. 28, "There is neither Jew nor Greek; there is neither bond nor free; there is neither male or female; for we are all one in Jesus Christ." Southerners used this to dispute the claim that they could not love their neighbor as one's self even if that meant between master and slave.

As to "Chattel" slavery, southern slaveholders would have insisted that such a definition was incorrect, asserting, probably, that such a definition implies property in the very personality and soul of the slave as well as the labor. Slaveholder's (naturally) would have argued that only property over the slave's labor was at issue, not his soul or personality. They would point to laws in existence which would prove that only labor for life without the slave's consent for the master was at issue. In other words, or in theory, the slave retained personhood, was not a mere thing or commodity.

All that sounds crazy to us moderns, but that was the line of argument used. Was also part-and-parcel to 1 million casualties between 1861-65.
Its must have been nice for slave holders to be able to pick and choose which parts of the Bible to follow...
 
Some of the Scriptures that the slaveholders avoided.

"He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death." (Exodus 21:16)


"You shall not hand over to his master a slave who has escaped from his master to you. (Deuteronomy 23:15)

"If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished." (Exodus 21:20)

"If a man strikes the eye of his male or female slave, and destroys it, he shall let him go free on account of his eye. "And if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female slave, he shall let him go free on account of his tooth." (Exodus 21:26-27)
They also avoided anything related to obeying the ruling authorities...
 
Do the scriptures in the New Testiment supercede those in the Old or add to them? If slavery is to only be viewed by whats in the New Testiment then how do some of the basic foundations of our faith such as the Ten Commandments fit in? Are we again just picking and choosing what we are to follow in the Bible just to justify slavery?
 
Seems like slaves have a Biblical duty to try to be free
Luke 4:18
"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
1 Corinthians 7:21
21 Were you a slave when you were called? Well, don't let it bother you; although if you can gain your freedom, take advantage of the opportunity.

Hmmmm so how many slave owners thought of Luke's comments..
Luke 6:31
And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

Or lastly something related to how slave owners must have thought towards the end of the war..

Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure in the last days. Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts.
 
Are we again just picking and choosing what we are to follow in the Bible just to justify slavery?
The problem is that different passages of the Bible leave readers with contradictory messages. Whichever side one tends to, he has to pick and choose what passages to follow. What it comes down to is that the Bible is not all that much help to either side -- or, it's all the help they could ever want (as long as they ignore what they don't want to hear).

jno
 
As Moderator
Applicable rule:


POLITICS & RELIGION - Any discussion that relates to either Politics or Religion, and does not directly relate to the topic of the American Civil War, is forbidden


That leaves out theological discussion especially biblical analysis or discussions of what is right or wrong or what folks should have done.. Just what folks in the time said and did with the Bible. Sermons, period publications, speeches and so on.
 
The problem is that different passages of the Bible leave readers with contradictory messages. Whichever side one tends to, he has to pick and choose what passages to follow. What it comes down to is that the Bible is not all that much help to either side -- or, it's all the help they could ever want (as long as they ignore what they don't want to hear).

jno

Obviously, as noted above, people can find some reinforcement in the Bible for just about anything, a skill not limited to antebellum slave owners.
 

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