Baldric

[Loradalbertum]

Could someone tell me if cavalry or infantry ADC's or staff officers used the baldric as an additional way to distinguish themselves from other officers? Does anyone have photos of officers wearing the baldric? Thank you in advance for the information.

 

[JOHN42768]

Welcome, enjoy. The over the shoulder method of wearing a sword was not a common practice in the civil War.

 

[7thWisconsin]

According to regulations, the officer of the day wore his sash over his shoulder to designate his duty. There were no over the shoulder sword carriages for officers, the only one being for the NCO sword. Staff officers were distinguished by the dark blue shoulder straps and the staff officer sword, if they chose to carry it and not something more sexy like a cavalry sabre.

 

[Loradalbertum]

Thank you very much for your answers, but I'm afraid I wasn't very precise in my question. I'm attaching two photographs that clearly show what I'm asking.

 

[Salterr]

Thank you very much for your answers, but I'm afraid I wasn't very precise in my question. I'm attaching two photographs that clearly show what I'm asking.

View attachment 555996

View attachment 555997

These weren't the standard but were sold through SH&G for high ranking officer and militia units. These were more of a flashy article rather than designating rank or being used in a practical way.Don Troiani mentioned in an interview that these were quite useless in field. I think they do look great. I'm sure there must be photos of officers wearing them. They're a French design.

 

[JerryD]

And here I thought someone was starting a thread about Blackadder....

 

[7thWisconsin]

That´s truly a horse of a different color. It´s not regulation, but regulations weren´t the same then as they are now, and at least one guy thought it was spiffy enough to buy one for himself. Would you call that a sabretache?

 

[rebelatsea]

And here I thought someone was starting a thread about Blackadder....

Likewise !

 

[RetiredCanuck]

I think this thread got conflated a bit because I see the original question did not actually mention the baldric was for the sword. The photos bears that out as the one in question is fastened to a sabretache.
FWIW, baldrics could also be used to hang a bayonet in lieu of a frog on the waist belt. I think C+D Jarnagin still offers them in their Mexican war leather gear.

 

[Cavalier]

@7thWisconsin Not any kind of expert on this but it is my impression that a sabretache was a flat leather bag suspended by straps, usually 3, from the same belt as the saber and on the same, (left), side as the saber. It was generally worn by light cavalrymen, especially hussars. I believe it originated in Hungary but was used by light cavalrymen of most European armies in the 18th. and 19th. centuries. If I'm not mistaken its original function was to carry dispatches in however it often got used to carry other things. Officers versions could often be very ornate. The ones used on campaign and by enlisted men were often much plainer but frequently sported the regimental number or some other martial device. I have the impression that they became something of a symbol for hussars and a traditional part of the uniforms items that set them apart from other, less exalted light cavalrymen.

I could be wrong but I don't believe that U.S. cavalrymen ever wore them.

John

 

[7thWisconsin]

@7thWisconsin Not any kind of expert on this but it is my impression that a sabretache was a flat leather bag suspended by straps, usually 3, from the same belt as the saber and on the same, (left), side as the saber. It was generally worn by light cavalrymen, especially hussars. I believe it originated in Hungary but was used by light cavalrymen of most European armies in the 18th. and 19th. centuries. If I'm not mistaken its original function was to carry dispatches in however it often got used to carry other things. Officers versions could often be very ornate. The ones used on campaign and by enlisted men were often much plainer but frequently sported the regimental number or some other martial device. I have the impression that they became something of a symbol for hussars and a traditional part of the uniforms items that set them apart from other, less exalted light cavalrymen.

I could be wrong but I don't believe that U.S. cavalrymen ever wore them.

John

You're spot on in your description of the appearance and origin of the sabretache. I just wonder if by the middle of the 19th century, that small, ornate, obviously non-functional little cartridge box might qualify as one. No - they were never part of any US cavalry equipment.

 

[Cavalier]

@7thWisconsin The little cartridge box was usually found on a leather belt, (baldric), which was worn over the left shoulder, the box riding low on the soldiers back. In European armies these were usually worn by light cavalrymen. I believe that they were functional during the Napoleonic era and earlier but I'm not sure about how long after that they would actually be used for cartridges. As with the sabretaches the ones worn by officers could be very ornate.

I could be all wet of course but I would very surprised if they were ever referred to as sabretaches.

John

 

[Trooper "D"]

Thank you very much for your answers, but I'm afraid I wasn't very precise in my question. I'm attaching two photographs that clearly show what I'm asking.

View attachment 555996

View attachment 555997

Looks like a dispatch box to me. What exactly were these for again? I'm familiar with seeing them in photos as this photo but I am at a loss for the function. I know the one's worn on the back were for dispatches that the dispatch rider never reads. It was like a little mailbox. Maybe I am confusing thos with something else.
I was under the impression that baldricks were leather carriers of bladed instruments. Like NCO swords for instance.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Detailed photos of "U.S. Militia Officers Baldric & Pouch." It certainly is elaborate, well worth a look.

Link:

Stewarts Military Antiques - - US Civil War Era Militia Officers Baldric & Pouch - $895.00

- US Civil War Era Militia Officers Baldric & Pouch: Original era manufacture. Based on a French Giberne design, as worn during Napoleon III's Second Empire. Black patent leather shoulder strap with a silver brocade obverse. The strap features a gilded brass lionhead which is attached by a thin...

stewartsmilitaryantiques.com

 

[Rhea Cole]

Looks like a dispatch box to me. What exactly were these for again? I'm familiar with seeing them in photos as this photo but I am at a loss for the function. I know the one's worn on the back were for dispatches that the dispatch rider never reads. It was like a little mailbox. Maybe I am confusing thos with something else.
I was under the impression that baldricks were leather carriers of bladed instruments. Like NCO swords for instance.

Your impression is correct. NCO, bandsman & hospital orderlies wore a simple 2" wide black leather baldric, buckle, frog & plain brass hilted narrow bladed sword. It was strictly ceremonial.

This one, however, has drawn blood. Waiting for delayed visitors to arrive for the Stones River Hallowed Ground Candlelight Cemetery Tour our granddaughter got bored. I gave her the sword to go whack low hanging leaves with.

A giggling, "Look at me!" was followed by the tip of the sword taking a divot out of the bridge of my nose…

Link:

C & D Jarnagin Company - Baldrics, Scabbards, and Frogs

 

[CleburneFanBoy]

View attachment 556195

View attachment 556194
Your impression is correct. NCO, bandsman & hospital orderlies wore a simple 2" wide black leather baldric, buckle, frog & plain brass hilted narrow bladed sword. It was strictly ceremonial.

This one, however, has drawn blood. Waiting for delayed visitors to arrive for the Stones River Hallowed Ground Candlelight Cemetery Tour our granddaughter got bored. I gave her the sword to go whack low hanging leaves with.

A giggling, "Look at me!" was followed by the tip of the sword taking a divot out of the bridge of my nose…

Link:

C & D Jarnagin Company - Baldrics, Scabbards, and Frogs

Fencing Granddaughters, some old troubles simply won't go away!

 

[RetiredCanuck]

@7thWisconsin The little cartridge box was usually found on a leather belt, (baldric), which was worn over the left shoulder, the box riding low on the soldiers back. In European armies these were usually worn by light cavalrymen. I believe that they were functional during the Napoleonic era and earlier but I'm not sure about how long after that they would actually be used for cartridges. As with the sabretaches the ones worn by officers could be very ornate.

I could be all wet of course but I would very surprised if they were ever referred to as sabretaches.

John

I called one in the photo a sabretache for lack of a better word. To put personal effects in mainly. One could call it a pistol cartridge box as well but the officer depicted does not seem to be wearing a pistol. I guess it depends on the ultimate purpose for which the item is being used.

 

[Cavalier]

@RetiredCanuck Not sure exactly about officers in the Civil War but previously mounted officers routinely kept their pistols in saddle holsters, not actually on their person. I believe I have seen saddle holsters pictured on the horses of mounted civil war officer on occasion but can't claim any special knowledge about that.

John

 

[Trooper "D"]

View attachment 556195

View attachment 556194
Your impression is correct. NCO, bandsman & hospital orderlies wore a simple 2" wide black leather baldric, buckle, frog & plain brass hilted narrow bladed sword. It was strictly ceremonial.

This one, however, has drawn blood. Waiting for delayed visitors to arrive for the Stones River Hallowed Ground Candlelight Cemetery Tour our granddaughter got bored. I gave her the sword to go whack low hanging leaves with.

A giggling, "Look at me!" was followed by the tip of the sword taking a divot out of the bridge of my nose…

Link:

C & D Jarnagin Company - Baldrics, Scabbards, and Frogs

Your battle granddaughter. Thanks for the response. I didn't think I was obtuse on the subject of what a baldric is but I never know what I don't know until I know it.

 

[Rhea Cole]

I called one in the photo a sabretache for lack of a better word. To put personal effects in mainly. One could call it a pistol cartridge box as well but the officer depicted does not seem to be wearing a pistol. I guess it depends on the ultimate purpose for which the item is being used.

The officer's baldric is a copy of the one used in Napoleon lll's army. In the U.S. it was a fashion copied by some state militias, not the U.S. Army. Its official designation is "militia officer's baldric." Like other garrison gee-gaws such as feathers, it served no practical purpose.

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A sabretache is a flat pouch worn by mounted men suspended from a belt. This link is to a resplendent variety of examples.

Link:

EmpireCostume - Sabretaches