ANV Battle Flags

[tiremann]

Does anyone have a decent picture of, or any references about, the flag of Col. Gordon's 6th Alabama at Antietam. I would like to make up the flag kit from B & B Tart (it is back in stock) and have been googling until my eyes bug out with no result. I would imagine it would have been a second bunting issue, and the Don Troiani painting shows it as such, with a Seven Pines battle honour. That is all I have been able to find. Any help would be much appreciated.

 

[Frederick14Va]

Im familiar with two later era flags surviving that are contributed to the 6th Alabama... An early version RD 3rd Bunting with unit ID issued in April 1863.. lost at Spotsylvania in June 1864... Another probably the replacement issue of this one was an unmarked RD 6th Bunting.... Then also one early war company presented flag... but isnt believed it was taken with them off to war and/or had been soon returned home... Don't find immediate reference of what flag they were using in Sept 62 about the Sharpsburg Campaign era in my files... will do some additional digging and see if I can find anything..

 

[AUG]

Here's a link to the 3rd Bunting captured at Spotsylvania, but that's not the one you're looking for.
http://www.archives.state.al.us/referenc/flags/024.html

As for the one depicted in the Troiani print, it looks like a 1st Bunting Issue based on the spacing between the stars.

 

[Frederick14Va]

The Troiani print shows a RD 2nd Bunting.

 

[AUG]

The Troiani print shows a RD 2nd Bunting.

So what makes you say its a 2nd Bunting?

 

[Frederick14Va]

So what makes you say its a 2nd Bunting?

Easy... To over simplify.... The RD 1st Bunting had a rather wide 8in width blue saltire cross... 3.5in stars... orange border.... Comparatively not that many of this pattern were made..... Stocks of blue fabric were reportedly running low so they reduced the size of the saltire cross to 5.5 in.. stars remained the same 3.5 in and orange border... This became known as the 2nd Bunting issue pattern.. Star spacing was the same for both.. approx. 6in..

At a glance.. if it has an orange border it would be one of these two... if the stars seem dwarfed swimming in the large blue cross... its a 1st Bunting.... if the stars are tight... its a 2nd Bunting..


Richmond Depot - ANV - First Bunting Issue Pattern

Richmond Depot - ANV - Second Bunting Issue Pattern

 

[AUG]

Easy... To over simplify.... The RD 1st Bunting had a rather wide 8in width blue saltire cross... 3.5in stars... orange border.... Comparatively not that many of this pattern were made..... Stocks of blue fabric were reportedly running low so they reduced the size of the saltire cross to 5.5 in.. stars remained the same 3.5 in and orange border... This became known as the 2nd Bunting issue pattern.. Star spacing was the same for both.. approx. 6in..

At a glance.. if it has an orange border it would be one of these two... if the stars seem dwarfed swimming in the large blue cross... its a 1st Bunting.... if the stars are tight... its a 2nd Bunting..


Richmond Depot - ANV - First Bunting Issue Pattern
View attachment 320745

Richmond Depot - ANV - Second Bunting Issue Pattern
View attachment 320746

Thanks for the explanation, or correction for that matter. For some reason I was thinking that the stars on the 2nd Bunting were spaced more closer together.

 

[Frederick14Va]

The 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Bunting all had what we call the "clustered" stars towards the center.. all the same distance... Primary characteristic differences were in the borders.. saltire field widths... etc.. 4th Bunting is when the stars were expanded out more equally spaced and larger... thereafter they shrank and swelled back in forth in size and spacing... for the next three patterns.... with only minute differences in some... rather easy to get some of them mixed up... Even for the well versed experts..... Toss in a Staunton Depot pattern flag in the mix and it will drive them crazy...lol..

 

[Miles Krisman]

Does anyone have a decent picture of, or any references about, the flag of Col. Gordon's 6th Alabama at Antietam. I would like to make up the flag kit from B & B Tart (it is back in stock) and have been googling until my eyes bug out with no result. I would imagine it would have been a second bunting issue, and the Don Troiani painting shows it as such, with a Seven Pines battle honour. That is all I have been able to find. Any help would be much appreciated.

The 6th Alabama Infantry regiment would have had a very similar flag to the 5th Alabama Infantry's flag that was captured at Chancellorsville. See the following: http://www.archives.state.al.us/referenc/flags/021.html

At Sharpsburg, the 6th Alabama Infantry flag would have had battle honors for Williamsburg, Seven Pines, Mechanicsville, Cold Harbor, and Malvern Hill.

 

[Frederick14Va]

Both the 5th and 6th Alabama Infantry Regiments were issued flags in April 1863....

The 5th Ala flag captured at Chancellorsville was only about a month old when captured.. an RD ANV 3rd bunting with unit ID and Montague style battle credits that included engagements up to and including Fredericksburg.

The correlating flag of the 6th Alabama that was captured at Spotsylvania had also been issued in April 1863.. However this flag had the unit ID in the center but did not have the Montague battle credits same as the 5th Ala did...

Displayed Battle honors/credits upon flags was a fairly new fad to these troops in the Summer of 1862... Some did.. many did not... Later war replacement flags were habitually issued and carried without honors nor even unit ID on many... Because a given unit participated in a particular engagement doesn't confirm it also displayed same upon its colors..

Still digging to try to find record or determine if able exactly what the 6th Ala had prior to this April 1863 flag issue... Likely they might have had a 2nd Bunting... This may have had "Seven Pines" applied honor per Longstreet directive and approval in June 1862...

 

[tiremann]

The 6th Alabama Infantry regiment would have had a very similar flag to the 5th Alabama Infantry's flag that was captured at Chancellorsville. See the following: http://www.archives.state.al.us/referenc/flags/021.html

At Sharpsburg, the 6th Alabama Infantry flag would have had battle honors for Williamsburg, Seven Pines, Mechanicsville, Cold Harbor, and Malvern Hill.

Many thanks for the info.

 

[tiremann]

Both the 5th and 6th Alabama Infantry Regiments were issued flags in April 1863....

The 5th Ala flag captured at Chancellorsville was only about a month old when captured.. an RD ANV 3rd bunting with unit ID and Montague style battle credits that included engagements up to and including Fredericksburg.

The correlating flag of the 6th Alabama that was captured at Spotsylvania had also been issued in April 1863.. However this flag had the unit ID in the center but did not have the Montague battle credits same as the 5th Ala did...

Displayed Battle honors/credits upon flags was a fairly new fad to these troops in the Summer of 1862... Some did.. many did not... Later war replacement flags were habitually issued and carried without honors nor even unit ID on many... Because a given unit participated in a particular engagement doesn't confirm it also displayed same upon its colors..

Still digging to try to find record or determine if able exactly what the 6th Ala had prior to this April 1863 flag issue... Likely they might have had a 2nd Bunting... This may have had "Seven Pines" applied honor per Longstreet directive and approval in June 1862...

Appreciate your efforts, thanks very much.

 

[Miles Krisman]

Both the 5th and 6th Alabama Infantry Regiments were issued flags in April 1863....

The 5th Ala flag captured at Chancellorsville was only about a month old when captured.. an RD ANV 3rd bunting with unit ID and Montague style battle credits that included engagements up to and including Fredericksburg.

The correlating flag of the 6th Alabama that was captured at Spotsylvania had also been issued in April 1863.. However this flag had the unit ID in the center but did not have the Montague battle credits same as the 5th Ala did...

Displayed Battle honors/credits upon flags was a fairly new fad to these troops in the Summer of 1862... Some did.. many did not... Later war replacement flags were habitually issued and carried without honors nor even unit ID on many... Because a given unit participated in a particular engagement doesn't confirm it also displayed same upon its colors..

Still digging to try to find record or determine if able exactly what the 6th Ala had prior to this April 1863 flag issue... Likely they might have had a 2nd Bunting... This may have had "Seven Pines" applied honor per Longstreet directive and approval in June 1862...

Thank you for this information. I was not aware that these regiments had received new flags in April 1863. Is it possible to provide the source of this fact?

 

[Frederick14Va]

Would have to do some file digging for specifics.... mainly gleaned from various quartermaster and regimental invoices and records.. as well as soldier accounts and/or regimental history...

 

[lelliott19]

Thank you for this information. I was not aware that these regiments had received new flags in April 1863. Is it possible to provide the source of this fact?

Flag: 5th Alabama Infantry
Catalogue No. 86.3954.1
(PN10075, PN10192)
Order a copy print

Provenance Reconstruction:

This flag is an Army of Northern Virginia, 3rd wool bunting issue. Flags of this pattern were manufactured at the Richmond Depot between July 1862 and May 1864. This flag was issued to the 5th Alabama Infantry in April, 1863. It was captured at the Battle of Chancellorsville, Virginia on May 3, 1863 by the 111th Pennsylvania Volunteers, 2nd Brigade, 2nd Division, 12th Army Corps. It was forwarded to the U.S. War Department by Brigadier General John W. Geary and was eventually assigned War Department Capture Number 222. The flag was returned to the State of Alabama effective March 25, 1905.

Sources:
Biggs, Greg. "Ragged Rags of Rebellion. The Flags of the Confederacy," an unpublished manuscript, Curator's Files, Alabama Department of Archives and History.
Curator's Object Files, Civil War Flags, Alabama Department of Archives and History.
U. S. War Department. American Decorations 1862-1926. Washington, Government Printing Office, 1927.
http://www.archives.state.al.us/referenc/flags/021.html

Flag: 6th Alabama Infantry
Catalogue No. 86.3955.1
(PN10176-10177)
Order a copy print

Provenance Reconstruction:

This flag is an Army of Northern Virginia, 3rd wool bunting issue. Flags of this pattern were manufactured at the Richmond Depot between July 1862 and May 1864. This flag was issued to the 6th Alabama Infantry in April, 1863. It was captured on the night of May 8, 1864 at Spotsylvania Courthouse (Laurel Hill) by Captain Benjamin F. Davis, 22nd Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry. According to the Official Records, Davis was killed two days later on May 10th by a sharpshooter. According to a letter from Captain R. G. Carter dated March 28, 1905, Davis was killed the following morning (May 9) as he emerged from the woods with the captured colors.

The flag was forwarded to the U.S. War Department on October 6, 1864 by G. K. Warren, Major General of Volunteers commanding the 5th Army Corps. The flag was assigned War Department Capture Number 194. It was returned to the State of Alabama by the U.S. War Department effective March 25, 1905.


Sources:
Biggs, Greg. "Ragged Rags of Rebellion. The Flags of the Confederacy," an unpublished manuscript, Curator's Files, Alabama Department of Archives and History.
Curator's Object Files, Civil War Flags, Alabama Department of Archives and History.
U.S. War Department. War of the Rebellion: A Compilation of the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies. Government Printing Office, 1880-1901.
http://www.archives.state.al.us/referenc/Flags/024.html

 

[yellowthornoftexas]

Ya'll are good!!! Okay, never knew so much went into flags....Frederick...Sir What's bunting! Sir The PRIVATE doesn't know Sir!, lol. Semper Fi

 

[Frederick14Va]

Ya'll are good!!! Okay, never knew so much went into flags....Frederick...Sir What's bunting! Sir The PRIVATE doesn't know Sir!, lol. Semper Fi

"bunting" is a worsted wool fabric material... light weight, loose weave, durable.. was well suited for flag making... Majority of CS depot issue flags were made of bunting...

The previous ideal material for flags was silk... It was tight woven but very light weight and it would take off in the slightest breeze.... However they were fragile, and easily damaged under field conditions Many Federal flags were made of silk.... Many early war era CS flags were made of silk... Stocks of this quickly was exhausted... they switched to bunting instead... Silk by nature gets very fragile and brittle with age.. and will naturally self destruct.... many original flags have turned into not more than fragments. Bunting on the other hand ages well... many of the original bunting flags captured are still durable with vibrant colors if they had been stored correctly...

Richmond Depot had one issue of silk battle flags in about Oct 1861, till the fabric stock ran out.. They mainly used Red.. but this color was not a popular one for dresses etc during that era.. so most commercial merchants didn't carry much of it.. Once the red ran out they used anything close.. even rose color... and pink.... Yes there were actually pink battle flags made and issued.. not many but some... Here is an artist rendition of that presentation issue of red/pink silk flags...

Bunting was still the fabric of choice for flags well into WW2... Nylon came out and it replaced bunting for flag making... Unfortunately worsted wool bunting is no longer manufactured.... The closest thing we can get is a wool-cotton blend fabric..

Today the term "bunting" is used to describe almost any type of decorative fabric such as the red-white-blue striped patriotic runners you see adorning banisters, porches, parade vehicles etc...

 

[yellowthornoftexas]

Friggin cool! May I recover now?! Lol
So, how can you tell bunting type from a painting?! I've seen the "pink"ish flags, just figured it was fading.

 

[Frederick14Va]

Friggin cool! May I recover now?! Lol
So, how can you tell bunting type from a painting?! I've seen the "pink"ish flags, just figured it was fading.

To further clarify for educational purposes of those reading here... when one says a flag is a "RD 3rd Bunting".. this is not a period term.. it is a historical reference term to denote a known given design type and pattern. A gentleman by the name of Howie Madaus was one of the early premier flag historians. His research and exhaustive study broke down the known flags into manageable research data chunks per-se... a host of us flag geeks.. known as Vexiollogist continue the study... Mandaus identified and applied labels to the different identified flag issues that occurred over the course of the war.. which we still use.. In the case of those that came out of the Richmond Depot... listed by material used and which pattern version using that material it was in chronological order..

To the average novice looking at one... "Yep thats a battle flag"...... But each respective battle flag "pattern" had various differences from each other... size of the flag... size of the field panels... width of the cross.. size of the stars.. spacing of the stars.. orientation of the stars... border width and color.. the type and location of unit ID's.. type of battle credit/honors that might be present... all help to identify which respective design pattern a given flag is... it also greatly helps identify when a given flag was made by the pattern type it is... Richmond Depot issued flags (ten different identified patterns)... are different from those made and issued out of Charleston.. Atlanta, Mobile, etc... After one has studied, chased and examined hundred of them first hand for a couple decades..... all the little details and characteristics become much more obvious and easier to spot... Many of the modern artist renditions of a battle something.. near half of them get the flags wrong... using the wrong pattern type of flag as the model from what the identified unit in the image should have had... and/or "wing it" with the smaller details since few would notice... lol... Many of the CBF found being sold by sutlers.. that units buy and use... sadly are generic collectible patterns that don't actually replicate any given original type...

 

[AUG]

Friggin cool! May I recover now?! Lol
So, how can you tell bunting type from a painting?! I've seen the "pink"ish flags, just figured it was fading.

The ones in the Troiani painting are made out of silk, not bunting (the '1st Silk Issue'). As for those, I think one surviving example is that of the 15th Alabama Infantry.

Sorry to add to the confusion here, but there was also a '1st Cotton Issue' - made from a mix of cotton and wool. Only a few of those were issued out, mostly after the 1st Silk Issues started to wear out. The 1st Texas Inf. received one of those 1st Cotton Issues IIRC in April, 1862. It was the one that was captured along with their Wigfall flag at Antietam.

That of the 1st Texas: