About Allies

[Robtweb1]

I am reading Eisenhower's book on World War II and he brought up something I hadn't thought about, nor have I read anything concerning this. What he said was that during a war, an alliance of nations doesn't work well and it was out of the ordinary that the allies were able to hold together to beat Hitler. He made reference to the fact that Naploleon's great victories were against alliances of weaker nations and that he was defeated by one strong nation.

There was a lot of talk about European nations coming into the WBTS on the Confederate side and Davis was activily soliciting their recognition and assistance. I have never read, however, of Lincoln looking for outside help, nor have I ever read anything negative about alliances during the WBTS. Has anyone ever seen anything pertaining to this?

 

[FourLeafClover]

The recognition Pres. davis sought would have been a huge endorsement of the cause which CSA were fighting for. More importantly the manufacturing capacity of Europe would have provided a means to break the blockade. CSA had the buying power early in the war.
A fleet of warships and the most advanced weaponry Europe could provide. Would be of great benefit to CSA. I doubt early in the war Davis believed personnel would be required.
That is why I believe the Emancipation Proclamation, initially in 62 then formally in Jan. 63 was so pivotal in the war. After that all hope of European intervention vanished for Davis and the cause of the CSA.

I will not go into Eisenhowers comments,, as this is not the forum for that. But I will say they are perhaps a little too all-encompassing.

 

[Nathanb1]

Well, I would just note the assistance of France and Spain in the American Revolution. That was pretty handy.

 

[kholland]

That is why I believe the Emancipation Proclamation, initially in 62 then formally in Jan. 63 was so pivotal in the war. After that all hope of European intervention vanished for Davis and the cause of the CSA.

The ruling class of England favored slavery but the people did not. And the Emancipation Proclamation pretty much kept England out of the war. I also believe there was a glut of cotton in England so cotton was NOT king at this time.

Another aspect of the war on a strictly domestic front. Lincoln had absolute power in the war and did not have to worry about the states not following his lead. Jefferson Davis on the other hand was president of a new country founded on "states rights". He had to deal with each state working on their own agenda along with the CSA agenda. If he wanted states to do things sometimes the other states would do it their own way. Not good for fighting a war.

 

[rpkennedy]

I am reading Eisenhower's book on World War II and he brought up something I hadn't thought about, nor have I read anything concerning this. What he said was that during a war, an alliance of nations doesn't work well and it was out of the ordinary that the allies were able to hold together to beat Hitler. He made reference to the fact that Naploleon's great victories were against alliances of weaker nations and that he was defeated by one strong nation.

There was a lot of talk about European nations coming into the WBTS on the Confederate side and Davis was activily soliciting their recognition and assistance. I have never read, however, of Lincoln looking for outside help, nor have I ever read anything negative about alliances during the WBTS. Has anyone ever seen anything pertaining to this?

I think Eisenhower was plain wrong in regards to Napoleon. I assume he means that Napoleon was defeated by a powerful Great Britain but that doesn't count the large numbers of non-British troops that were in Wellington's army (the Hanoverian divisions and German legions, the Dutch-Belgian divisions, the Brunswick contingent, not mentioning the large Prussian army that was moving towards Napoleon which forced him into a confrontation with Wellington at Waterloo). I would certainly call that a coalition of nations.

R

 

[FourLeafClover]

At the point of seccession there had been a bumper cotton crop the year before. English mill owners had bought cheap, and stockpiled the excess.
Production in English mills was not affected by the outbreak of war in the US. The new govt. in CSA decided an embargo of exports would force a shortage of raw material in the mills of Europe. Bad timing.

Full production continued until the stockpile was exhausted, around early 62.
By this time the Anaconda blockade had tightened. CSA would have had difficulty exporting cotton, even if they wished. Unfortunate as the price had rocketed. They were literally sitting on a gold mine. A fact which did not go un-noticed by Northern entrepreneurs who happily traded accross the Mason Dixon line.
This was of course a trickle, compared to the needs of the English millowners. Substitute Egyptian and Indian cotton was inferior quality to the American long fibre variety. Inevitably, mills shut down or went over to shorter working hours. Leaving the employees impoverished, and often destitute.
A political storm was brewing.

Public opinion was divided. Recognise the CSA and return to full trading status. Or hope the war would soon end.
The govt. of U.K. was being forced off the fence.
Where the U.K. lead, the CSA believed France would follow.
Then Antietam gave Lincoln his window of opportunity to announce his draft E.P. Followed up with the Jan. 1st 1863 official declaration.
Then the whole complexion of the matter was changed.


An extract from a letter to Lincoln from Lancashire millworkers now on public works and benefits:

.. the vast progress which you have made in the short space of twenty months fills us with hope that every stain on your freedom will shortly be removed, and that the erasure of that foul blot on civilisation and Christianity – chattel slavery – during your presidency, will cause the name of Abraham Lincoln to be honoured and revered by posterity. We are certain that such a glorious consummation will cement Great Britain and the United States in close and enduring regards.
—Public Meeting, Free Trade Hall, Manchester, 31 December 1862.


And his reply:

.. I know and deeply deplore the sufferings which the working people of Manchester and in all Europe are called to endure in this crisis. It has been often and studiously represented that the attempt to overthrow this Government which was built on the foundation of human rights, and to substitute for it one which should rest exclusively on the basis of slavery, was unlikely to obtain the favour of Europe.
Through the action of disloyal citizens, the working people of Europe have been subjected to a severe trial for the purpose of forcing their sanction to that attempt. Under the circumstances I cannot but regard your decisive utterances on the question as an instance of sublime Christian heroism which has not been surpassed in any age or in any country. It is indeed an energetic and re-inspiring assurance of the inherent truth and of the ultimate and universal triumph of justice, humanity and freedom.
I hail this interchange of sentiments, therefore, as an augury that, whatever else may happen, whatever misfortune may befall your country or my own, the peace and friendship which now exists between the two nations will be, as it shall be my desire to make them, perpetual.
—Abraham Lincoln, 19 January 1863


There was not universal support for the North. Some millworkers continued to fly a confederate flag.

The Federal blockade of southern ports was seen as an unwarranted interference with the freedom of trade. There was pressure on the British government to demand its lifting, by force if necessary. On the day of the Prince of Wales' marriage to the Danish princess, Alexandra, cotton mills in some Lancashire towns hoisted the Confederate flag in tribute.

Lancashire's liberalism had its limits.
http://www.spinningtheweb.org.uk/m_display.php?irn=10&sub=overview&theme=overview&crumb=Lancashire Cotton Famine


It would not be until 1864, that a usable amount of cotton would come into English mills. By which time many skilled workers had moved away to the wool trade. Cotton textile manufacturing would never be the same again.
But it really was that close, IF the U.K. would have entered the war.