Muzzleldrs A question on supposed "war-trophy" Ferguson Rifles

[Rusk County Avengers]

(Original example)


I've been on something of a Revolutionary War hitch here lately, plus one on Revolutionary War rifles in the British and various German armies during that war, and I got a question.

Does anyone know anything of the claim of the two surviving Revolutionary War Ferguson Rifles being trophies taken up North from the Confederacy during the CW?

I can't remember the source of this claim, I'm pretty sure it was put forth in a book that's price has gone sky-high, and I know its been peddled around the internet. I'm mainly curious as first off I can't see these old, and somewhat fragile, guns being used in the field so I'd reckon they were taken from someone's home, or a pile of confiscated guns in a town. Second off according to all the Revolutionary War experts, it shouldn't be possible as so many are absolutely adamant these guns were last recorded stored in New York after Ferguson's little 200 man "rifle corps" was disbanded, and these guns weren't at King's Mountain, or ever used in the Southern Theater, so thus shouldn't have been there.

Just an innocent question, and an interesting one that draws a weapon connection between the Rev. War and CW.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

I do not have an answer to your question, but I will send you a private message. I have an interesting jaeger type rifle in military configuration, still in flintlock, which is germanic / dutch, and i think a bit later than the revolutionary war, but certainly Napoleonic Wars

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

I guess the book mentioned is now available online:

Ferguson Rifle – Great War Militaria

Apparently the Morristown example was taken home by a discharged Union POW from Quincy, Massachusetts. Interesting, if headscratcher story.

The Milwaukee example is attributed to the South by the author, but I've not seen the evidence in the write up.

 

[Peter Stines]

I doubt if many of these were floating around in 1860. There weren't that many made in 18th century. Labor intensive and expensive to build and could be put out of order fairly easily. Stocks tended to be fragile in a key area. A lot of wood had to be removed to fit in the lock, breech loading part, barrel and trigger and could be damaged. Powder fouling and leading in the bore reduced the accuracy after a few shots. The idea looked good on paper but not so good in field use. So what happened to these guns after the Rev War ? I saw one listed in an 1808 US inventory "unserviceable" and never again. In the hands of civilians ? Maybe but more likely traded in or scrapped decades later. I wouldn't completely rule out their use by Confeds but the evidence is lacking.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

If it came home as a war trophy, I suspect it came home the same way many fine antique sporting arms came home with GIs from occupied Germany when civilians were told to clear their houses of any arms, and put them outside for pickup

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

I doubt if many of these were floating around in 1860. There weren't that many made in 18th century. Labor intensive and expensive to build and could be put out of order fairly easily. Stocks tended to be fragile in a key area. A lot of wood had to be removed to fit in the lock, breech loading part, barrel and trigger and could be damaged. Powder fouling and leading in the bore reduced the accuracy after a few shots. The idea looked good on paper but not so good in field use. So what happened to these guns after the Rev War ? I saw one listed in an 1808 US inventory "unserviceable" and never again. In the hands of civilians ? Maybe but more likely traded in or scrapped decades later. I wouldn't completely rule out their use by Confeds but the evidence is lacking.

Going by what I've read in the link I put up, and other sources, I'd say they were most likely at King's Mountain which would explain how they ended up in the South, and I don't think many survived. Most stuff was burned or otherwise destroyed there, so there probably wasn't more than a dozen that survived.

After that adding 80 years between then and the CW, I expect those two taken North could've been the only ones left.

Still I find it very interesting that the experts will scream till their blue in the face these guns weren't at Kings Mountain when the only two surviving military pattern ones apparently came from the region 80 years later.

They were unique guns with a good idea, but those flaws combined with the extremely high cost insured there weren't many to start with. But I can't see Confederates using a gun that old and that different.

 

[Peter Stines]

Going by what I've read in the link I put up, and other sources, I'd say they were most likely at King's Mountain which would explain how they ended up in the South, and I don't think many survived. Most stuff was burned or otherwise destroyed there, so there probably wasn't more than a dozen that survived.

After that adding 80 years between then and the CW, I expect those two taken North could've been the only ones left.

Still I find it very interesting that the experts will scream till their blue in the face these guns weren't at Kings Mountain when the only two surviving military pattern ones apparently came from the region 80 years later.

They were unique guns with a good idea, but those flaws combined with the extremely high cost insured there weren't many to start with. But I can't see Confederates using a gun that old and that different.

If you read Dr. D. W. Baileys books: British Military Flintlock Rifles and Small Arms of the British Forces in North America there were Fergusson rifles at many battles but not at King's Mountain. Even Fergusson didn't have his rifle with him. It was left with his brother and still survives today.
As I recall Fergusson's body was searched and the only weapons found was a sword and a pistol. Fergusson had been wounded in his right elbow and had to use his left hand. So its likely he couldn't use his famed rifle. My understanding is that Kings Mnt. Was fought between Loyalists/Tories and American "Over Mountain Men" John Crockett father of David was there. Even if the Fergussons were converted to percussion and re-rifled to use a minie there was still the fragile stock. There are replica Fergussons being made as well as the 1776 British rifle. Both seem to perform well. I won't comment on those
But I'd love one to try out.

 

[Peter Stines]

I forgot to add this; the Brits copied several "American rifle guns" but some reason they weren't accepted. They even copied the carving on the stocks.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

If you read Dr. D. W. Baileys books: British Military Flintlock Rifles and Small Arms of the British Forces in North America there were Fergusson rifles at many battles but not at King's Mountain. Even Fergusson didn't have his rifle with him. It was left with his brother and still survives today.
As I recall Fergusson's body was searched and the only weapons found was a sword and a pistol. Fergusson had been wounded in his right elbow and had to use his left hand. So its likely he couldn't use his famed rifle.

I'd say someone is wrong on them being at King's Mountain. Its literally the only explanation for why these rifles were taken North from the Carolinas in the CW.

Used to folks believed they were present, then it went over to not possible, but I can't see them not being there. I've heard credible talk of rifled .62 caliber balls being found there way back in the day, (Nat. Park and State Parks, kind of hard to get folks to talk too much of finds), add that to mentions of "Ferguson swords" taken after the battle, and them most likely the wicked socket sword bayonets the rifles used, and its kind of impossible for them not to be there. Plus guns were hard to come up with for Ferguson's forces, they were issuing surrendered US Charleville's to Loyalist Militia under Ferguson, which would kind of put him requesting or taking his rifles south from NY for issue.

I'm not to argue with DW Bailey's work, but the evidence is too overwhelming in the actual existence of two rifles from the South. Least all I've read of the two guns.

Also I don't think Ferguson was in any shape to use a rifle due to his wounding in the arm before he went South.

 

[CowCavalry]

A beautiful piece of ingenuity though.

 

[Peter Stines]

Depending on where these .62 caliber balls were found and if or not the imprint of any patching was present, it could be mistaken for American bullets from a m/l A lot of the early rifle guns were 50 caliber and larger. .62 would not be out of line considering the numbers of bears in the backwoods. Officers fusils and issue carbines were approx. 65 cal or somewhat smaller. That could account for some balls. I want to say that horse pistols of the day were in that .58 to 70 caliber range. Then too a lot of these "artifacts" have disappeared and cannot be measured or even verified. FWIW There is only 1 surviving Fergusson trigger guard.

 

[Belfoured]

I'd say someone is wrong on them being at King's Mountain. Its literally the only explanation for why these rifles were taken North from the Carolinas in the CW.

Used to folks believed they were present, then it went over to not possible, but I can't see them not being there. I've heard credible talk of rifled .62 caliber balls being found there way back in the day, (Nat. Park and State Parks, kind of hard to get folks to talk too much of finds), add that to mentions of "Ferguson swords" taken after the battle, and them most likely the wicked socket sword bayonets the rifles used, and its kind of impossible for them not to be there. Plus guns were hard to come up with for Ferguson's forces, they were issuing surrendered US Charleville's to Loyalist Militia under Ferguson, which would kind of put him requesting or taking his rifles south from NY for issue.

I'm not to argue with DW Bailey's work, but the evidence is too overwhelming in the actual existence of two rifles from the South. Least all I've read of the two guns.

Also I don't think Ferguson was in any shape to use a rifle due to his wounding in the arm before he went South.

Valid point about Ferguson after he was hit in the right arm at Brandywine. I've always understood that he was effectively one-armed following that battle.

 

[RodentRevolution]

Valid point about Ferguson after he was hit in the right arm at Brandywine. I've always understood that he was effectively one-armed following that battle.

As I understand it he recovered from that only to be wounded again in a "friendly bayonetting" incident when a party of British troops mistakenly stormed his position during a night pursuit of some patriot raiders. That was the source of his incapacity at King's Mountain.

 

[RodentRevolution]

I'd say someone is wrong on them being at King's Mountain. Its literally the only explanation for why these rifles were taken North from the Carolinas in the CW.

Used to folks believed they were present, then it went over to not possible, but I can't see them not being there. I've heard credible talk of rifled .62 caliber balls being found there way back in the day, (Nat. Park and State Parks, kind of hard to get folks to talk too much of finds), add that to mentions of "Ferguson swords" taken after the battle, and them most likely the wicked socket sword bayonets the rifles used, and its kind of impossible for them not to be there. Plus guns were hard to come up with for Ferguson's forces, they were issuing surrendered US Charleville's to Loyalist Militia under Ferguson, which would kind of put him requesting or taking his rifles south from NY for issue.

I'm not to argue with DW Bailey's work, but the evidence is too overwhelming in the actual existence of two rifles from the South. Least all I've read of the two guns.

Also I don't think Ferguson was in any shape to use a rifle due to his wounding in the arm before he went South.

You have to be a little careful as the .62 (actually a nominal .615 or 20 bore) bullet was the standard for British military carbines and rifles and not unique to the Ordnance Rifle. That said it would not come as a surprise to me if some were present that fateful day. Certainly I have no problem with them winding up in Southern hands, either as rewards to loyalists who then stayed in the new nation or war booty acquired by patriots. However there is a third option which is that Ferguson pattern rifles though not common also entered the civilian market and more were made for military service with the East India Company.

So Kings's Mountain is not the only route to American hands.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

You have to be a little careful as the .62 (actually a nominal .615 or 20 bore) bullet was the standard for British military carbines and rifles and not unique to the Ordnance Rifle. That said it would not come as a surprise to me if some were present that fateful day. Certainly I have no problem with them winding up in Southern hands, either as rewards to loyalists who then stayed in the new nation or war booty acquired by patriots. However there is a third option which is that Ferguson pattern rifles though not common also entered the civilian market and more were made for military service with the East India Company.

So Kings's Mountain is not the only route to American hands.

I see your point on the caliber, I've bought quite a few books on the subject since this thread started, but I'm still tempted to think Ferguson took the guns South.

The ones surviving from the South, are British Ordnance pattern, and civilian pattern ones were pretty different in some ways and going by the one IMA sold from the EIC they found in Nepal, it's a way different animal. Standard Brown Bess lock, longer breech screw beefer build all the way around if I remember right.

One recently published book however theorizes that after Ferguson's special unit was disbanded, the men took the rifles with them back to they're units to use in Light Infantry roles. IF that is so, it could be an explanation, but I'm very doubtful that's the case. Considering how most British Light Infantry in the Rev. War used the standard Short Land Bess, in .75, with issue ammunition, it would create a supply problem. Plus, aristocratically minded Brit officers were kind of anal on uniformity, and an enlisted man in a green coat with a funky newfangled rifle in the ranks with their LI troops with their round hats, (or other unique hats), with short red jackets would've been an issue.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

I see your point on the caliber, I've bought quite a few books on the subject since this thread started, but I'm still tempted to think Ferguson took the guns South.

The ones surviving from the South, are British Ordnance pattern, and civilian pattern ones were pretty different in some ways and going by the one IMA sold from the EIC they found in Nepal, it's a way different animal. Standard Brown Bess lock, longer breech screw beefer build all the way around if I remember right.

One recently published book however theorizes that after Ferguson's special unit was disbanded, the men took the rifles with them back to they're units to use in Light Infantry roles. IF that is so, it could be an explanation, but I'm very doubtful that's the case. Considering how most British Light Infantry in the Rev. War used the standard Short Land Bess, in .75, with issue ammunition, it would create a supply problem. Plus, aristocratically minded Brit officers were kind of anal on uniformity, and an enlisted man in a green coat with a funky newfangled rifle in the ranks with their LI troops with their round hats, (or other unique hats), with short red jackets would've been an issue.

My knowledge on these is pretty much limited to the book on British Military Flintlock Rifles but I do suspect that this unusual mechanism might need attention and repair by a gunsmith skilled in Ferguson Rifles; if so, it would make better sense to have them kept together.
Maybe they are still in storage in that warehouse shown at the end of the movie "Raiders of the Lost Ark" and they are on a shelf next to the Ark of the Covenant!

 

[Belfoured]

As I understand it he recovered from that only to be wounded again in a "friendly bayonetting" incident when a party of British troops mistakenly stormed his position during a night pursuit of some patriot raiders. That was the source of his incapacity at King's Mountain.

Everything I've ever seen states that after the wounding at Brandywine he lost the full use of his right arm. The wound shattered the elbow joint and in fact he resisted the advice for amputation. He had several follow up procedures to remove bone splinters and the arm remained permanently bent. Following his wounding Howe disbanded the corps in part because Ferguson would no longer be able to use his weapon, in addition to the difficulty in training troops to use it. He was bayoneted through his "good" left arm on March 14, 1780 at MacPherson's Plantation, SC and had limited use of that arm for a few weeks.

 

[Belfoured]

I see your point on the caliber, I've bought quite a few books on the subject since this thread started, but I'm still tempted to think Ferguson took the guns South.

The ones surviving from the South, are British Ordnance pattern, and civilian pattern ones were pretty different in some ways and going by the one IMA sold from the EIC they found in Nepal, it's a way different animal. Standard Brown Bess lock, longer breech screw beefer build all the way around if I remember right.

One recently published book however theorizes that after Ferguson's special unit was disbanded, the men took the rifles with them back to they're units to use in Light Infantry roles. IF that is so, it could be an explanation, but I'm very doubtful that's the case. Considering how most British Light Infantry in the Rev. War used the standard Short Land Bess, in .75, with issue ammunition, it would create a supply problem. Plus, aristocratically minded Brit officers were kind of anal on uniformity, and an enlisted man in a green coat with a funky newfangled rifle in the ranks with their LI troops with their round hats, (or other unique hats), with short red jackets would've been an issue.

There was an order issued on February 21, 1778, requiring reports of the number of rifles belonging to Ferguson's (now disbanded) corps which were now apparently in the possession of other regiments. On 10 March 1783, the General Return of Stores report at New York included seven Ferguson rifles that were not serviceable. What was going on in the interim is open to speculation. Given that Howe determined that they were not a viable service weapon, it would seem odd to have isolated individuals in a line regiment or in light infantry/grenadier battalions outfitted with a different weapon from everybody else.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

My knowledge on these is pretty much limited to the book on British Military Flintlock Rifles but I do suspect that this unusual mechanism might need attention and repair by a gunsmith skilled in Ferguson Rifles; if so, it would make better sense to have them kept together.
Maybe they are still in storage in that warehouse shown at the end of the movie "Raiders of the Lost Ark" and they are on a shelf next to the Ark of the Covenant!

If only they were!

Call it, the "Ferguson Retirement Plan for Colonial Mongrels" to quote the man on Patriots.