A Question About Double-Shoting...

[Western Reserve Volunteer]

I have been reading up on the Cleveland Light Artillery as of late, and came across an interesting mention of the practice of double-shoting a cannon, in the context of putting down a nascent riot in Cleveland, over an vivisection at the Medical School. I have also seen reference to the unusual practice in context of the War of 1812, with the "Old Betsy" cannon at Fort Stevenson.In both cases, the tactic seems to be aimed at using two rounds of canister\grape and one charge at close range for maximum firepower. It's a cool, if very specialized tactic, to utilize.

I was wondering if other knew more? For instance, was there ever an analogue to a buck and ball load tried, with both round shot and canister?

Also, I wonder how such an tactic would work given that, to my knowledge, Civil War canister rounds are attached by sabot to the powder bag? How permanent is such an attachment? Would it be possible to load two canister rounds without also loading two bag of powder?

 

[alan polk]

I was wondering if other knew more? For instance, was there ever an analogue to a buck and ball load tried, with both round shot and canister?

There was a canister round (tin can full of iron canister) which sat atop an iron base which acted like a cannonball. The entire system was wrapped in some sort of fiber. Nonetheless, The iron base resembled the bottom half of a bird cage James projectile. When fired, it would scatter iron balls and this chunk of iron. It was evidently ineffective and was no longer manufactured after Shiloh. A similar type munition was called a hot shot, where a solid spherical round sat atop a similar base as described above. The round ball would be heated in a fire then rammed down the barrel onto this base. It was a way to launch a red-hot projectile into structures to set fire. The base, I suppose, prevented the heated round from igniting the powder charge in the cannon before firing.

Also, I wonder how such an tactic would work given that, to my knowledge, Civil War canister rounds are attached by sabot to the powder bag? How permanent is such an attachment? Would it be possible to load two canister rounds without also loading two bag of powder?

There is some debate about "fixed ammunition." Regardless, double canister was used commonly during intense combat, particularly when a battery was about to be overrun. I'm almost certain that that when double canister was used, the top canister round (the one which sat atop the bottom round in the barrel) did not have its powder bag attached. Whether it was detached before being stacked, or whether all canister round were never actually attached (or fixed) to its powder charge, I don't know. If they were "fixed," it would have been detached from the last round rammed into the barrel (meaning only the first round put into the barrel had a charge behind it).

 

[lelliott19]

There is some debate about "fixed ammunition." Regardless, double canister was used commonly during intense combat, particularly when a battery was about to be overrun. I'm almost certain that that when double canister was used, the top canister round (the one which sat atop the bottom round in the barrel) did not have its powder bag attached. Whether it was detached before being stacked, or whether all canister round were never actually attached (or fixed) to its powder charge, I don't know. If they were "fixed," it would have been detached from the last round rammed into the barrel (meaning only the first round put into the barrel had a charge behind it).

I know you're not going to believe me.......because you've had to "school me" on artillery so many times in the past.....but I followed ever bit of that!!!! Honest. Maybe the lessons are sinking in?!?!?!?!

 

[rpkennedy]

There was a canister round (tin can full of iron canister) which sat atop an iron base which acted like a cannonball. The entire system was wrapped in some sort of fiber. Nonetheless, The iron base resembled the bottom half of a bird cage James projectile. When fired, it would scatter iron balls and this chunk of iron. It was evidently ineffective and was no longer manufactured after Shiloh. A similar type munition was called a hot shot, where a solid spherical round sat atop a similar base as described above. The round ball would be heated in a fire then rammed down the barrel onto this base. It was a way to launch a red-hot projectile into structures to set fire. The base, I suppose, prevented the heated round from igniting the powder charge in the cannon before firing.



There is some debate about "fixed ammunition." Regardless, double canister was used commonly during intense combat, particularly when a battery was about to be overrun. I'm almost certain that that when double canister was used, the top canister round (the one which sat atop the bottom round in the barrel) did not have its powder bag attached. Whether it was detached before being stacked, or whether all canister round were never actually attached (or fixed) to its powder charge, I don't know. If they were "fixed," it would have been detached from the last round rammed into the barrel (meaning only the first round put into the barrel had a charge behind it).

When loading double canister, the powder charge for the seckind shot was knocked off, usually against the wheel just before it was loaded. Although I have heard of cases where the leader forgot to do this and the cannon was fired with 2 charges.

Ryan

 

[redbob]

There was a canister round (tin can full of iron canister) which sat atop an iron base which acted like a cannonball. The entire system was wrapped in some sort of fiber. Nonetheless, The iron base resembled the bottom half of a bird cage James projectile. When fired, it would scatter iron balls and this chunk of iron. It was evidently ineffective and was no longer manufactured after Shiloh. A similar type munition was called a hot shot, where a solid spherical round sat atop a similar base as described above. The round ball would be heated in a fire then rammed down the barrel onto this base. It was a way to launch a red-hot projectile into structures to set fire. The base, I suppose, prevented the heated round from igniting the powder charge in the cannon before firing.



There is some debate about "fixed ammunition." Regardless, double canister was used commonly during intense combat, particularly when a battery was about to be overrun. I'm almost certain that that when double canister was used, the top canister round (the one which sat atop the bottom round in the barrel) did not have its powder bag attached. Whether it was detached before being stacked, or whether all canister round were never actually attached (or fixed) to its powder charge, I don't know. If they were "fixed," it would have been detached from the last round rammed into the barrel (meaning only the first round put into the barrel had a charge behind it).

The James used a James type base for both a canister round and a hot shot round, though they were slightly different as to the concavity of the top of the base. I would also think that if you were firing a double charge of canister that the additional weight of the 2nd round without adding additional propulsion (the powder charge) would have slightly altered the distance that the rounds would fly, though if you were desperate enough to be firing a double round it wouldn't really matter.

 

[alan polk]

The James used a James type base for both a canister round and a hot shot round, though they were slightly different as to the concavity of the top of the base. I would also think that if you were firing a double charge of canister that the additional weight of the 2nd round without adding additional propulsion (the powder charge) would have slightly altered the distance that the rounds would fly, though if you were desperate enough to be firing a double round it wouldn't really matter.

Redbob, do you know of any descriptions of how the hot shot rounds were loaded? Or how it came arranged or packaged from the manufacturer?

It must have been a very dangerous endeavor to get it loaded.

 

[redbob]

Redbob, do you know of any descriptions of how the hot shot rounds were loaded? Or how it came arranged or packaged from the manufacturer?

It must have been a very dangerous endeavor to get it loaded.

Shipboard and in fortifications, it appears that the ball was heated, a wad of wet burlap or straw was shoved down the bore of the gun against the powder charge to prevent premature ignition, the hot ball was run down and the gun very quickly fired. The James appears to be a different matter as the base appears to have been fastened to the ball, the whole thing heated and then fired with something having been placed between the base and the powder charge to prevent ignition. And, you are right, this seems to be a very questionable way of operating unless you have a real death wish.

 

[Western Reserve Volunteer]

Fascinating replies all! I had no idea that the fixed powder bag was removed from the round prior to firing, but that makes a lot of sense. From what I can tell, double shoting guns was a tactic for close range fire against infantry.

Redbob neat info on the hot shot... though I would hate to get anywhere near a real one! Seems like one of those ideas that is great in theory a questionable in practice.

 

[alan polk]

Shipboard and in fortifications, it appears that the ball was heated, a wad of wet burlap or straw was shoved down the bore of the gun against the powder charge to prevent premature ignition, the hot ball was run down and the gun very quickly fired. The James appears to be a different matter as the base appears to have been fastened to the ball, the whole thing heated and then fired with something having been placed between the base and the powder charge to prevent ignition. And, you are right, this seems to be a very questionable way of operating unless you have a real death wish.

Thanks. I was wondering whether the base and the round were attached - maybe like how a regular round ball is attached to its wooden sabot. I was thinking that maybe the iron base was attached to a wooden sabot and the round ball just separate. But as far as pure efficiency, it would make sense that the ball and base would both be heated. But deadgummit, I bet the pucker factor was way up there when it was being rammed home!!