A. J. Smith's Role In 1864?

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

If A. J. Smith's 5 brigades are back on time from the Red River, or not sent at all, where would they have gone in May 1864? Would they have been with Sherman in Georgia, since that's where the rest of the Army of Tennessee had gone?

Historically, by the time Smith returned to Tennessee from Louisiana, Sony Smith had come to grief at Brice's Crossroads and he had to deal with that situation, leading to Tupelo.

Was Sherman always intending for Smith to be part of the force trying to keep Forrest in check?

If Smith and his brigades are with the Army of Tennessee, what forces and what commander does Sherman likely send to deal with Forrest after Brice's Crossroads?

 

[Mississippian1861]

If A. J. Smith's 5 brigades are back on time from the Red River, or not sent at all, where would they have gone in May 1864? Would they have been with Sherman in Georgia, since that's where the rest of the Army of Tennessee had gone?

Historically, by the time Smith returned to Tennessee from Louisiana, Sony Smith had come to grief at Brice's Crossroads and he had to deal with that situation, leading to Tupelo.

Was Sherman always intending for Smith to be part of the force trying to keep Forrest in check?

If Smith and his brigades are with the Army of Tennessee, what forces and what commander does Sherman likely send to deal with Forrest after Brice's Crossroads?

It was Sturgis who got whipped at Brice's. Sooy Smith got whipped at Okolona in February.

A.J. Smith had seven brigades with his detachment, five 16th Corps Brigades, and two from the 17th Corps in a provisional division that had been left at Alexandria I think. Part of that 17th Corps detachment joined Sturgis' expedition that ended at Brice's. I had been under the impression that the two brigades of Mower's division of the 16th Corps would have rejoined the Memphis Garrison either way.

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

It was Sturgis who got whipped at Brice's. Sooy Smith got whipped at Okolona in February.

Thank you. I lost track of which opponent Forrest eembarrassed on which instance.

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

Started on Work For Giants and was surprised to learn Sherman wanted Smith to raid Pascagoula and threaten Mobile to prevent Polk from reinforcing Johnston. Also, the idea of sending Smith into Northern Mississippi was conceived, though not made definite, before Brice's Crossroads.

I do wonder: if Smirh had already rejoined Sherman in time to start the Atlanta Campaign (or never participated in the Red River Campaign at all) would those two extra divisions have made any difference to Sherman's operations against Johnston?

 

[J. Stanley]

Sherman's original plan had been to use the Army of the Tennessee on a long flanking march to Rome, Georgia. Historically, the entanglement of A.J. Smith's 10,000 men in the Red River Campaign and the fact that 10,000 of XVII Corps were still on furlough derailed this plan entirely, resulting in Sherman turning to Thomas' Snake Creek Gap plan.

As with hypotheticals, it's impossible to say if Sherman would have gone with his Rome plan given that he was still 10,000 men short of his original vision. As it was, the plan had merit: it could potentially get in between Leonidas Polk's Army of Mississippi in Alabama and Johnston's army in Georgia as well as put a strong force just 20 miles away from the Western & Atlantic Railroad, Johnston's lifeline. Still, this would be a very hard ask for an army of just 35,000 and would have required a far more bold and daring commander than McPherson.

If Sherman went back to doing the Snake Creek Gap plan, that gives McPherson an extra 10,000 men to move against Resaca - it's again impossible to say if McPherson would have been more aggressive.

This does open the question: if A.J. Smith is in the Atlanta Campaign with Sherman, who's guarding Sherman's lifeline?

 

[uaskme]

Sherman's original plan had been to use the Army of the Tennessee on a long flanking march to Rome, Georgia. Historically, the entanglement of A.J. Smith's 10,000 men in the Red River Campaign and the fact that 10,000 of XVII Corps were still on furlough derailed this plan entirely, resulting in Sherman turning to Thomas' Snake Creek Gap plan.

As with hypotheticals, it's impossible to say if Sherman would have gone with his Rome plan given that he was still 10,000 men short of his original vision. As it was, the plan had merit: it could potentially get in between Leonidas Polk's Army of Mississippi in Alabama and Johnston's army in Georgia as well as put a strong force just 20 miles away from the Western & Atlantic Railroad, Johnston's lifeline. Still, this would be a very hard ask for an army of just 35,000 and would have required a far more bold and daring commander than McPherson.

If Sherman went back to doing the Snake Creek Gap plan, that gives McPherson an extra 10,000 men to move against Resaca - it's again impossible to say if McPherson would have been more aggressive.

This does open the question: if A.J. Smith is in the Atlanta Campaign with Sherman, who's guarding Sherman's lifeline?

If Sherman had used Thomas's suggestion. He would of had 80k of the AOC at Snake Creek Gap

 

[tony_gunter]

If Sherman had used Thomas's suggestion. He would of had 80k of the AOC at Snake Creek Gap

I keep seeing this, do you have a link to where Thomas suggested pushing the army through Snake Creek Gap?

There's a huge problem with this as a plan: Snake Creek Gap held a 7 mile long narrow road that wouldn't support wagons moving through simultaneously with the troops. McPherson's men pushed through the gap with what they could carry, three days rations and 60 rounds of ammo, while pioneers worked improving the road. It wouldn't be until 4 days later that the road was widened sufficiently for the wagons.

60 rounds of ammo is sufficient for about 3 hours of semi-sustained fighting. Meanwhile, Johnston could have his entire army back to Resaca within a day. Did Thomas address how the army was supposed to maintain sufficient supplies?

 

[tony_gunter]

It was Sturgis who got whipped at Brice's. Sooy Smith got whipped at Okolona in February.

A.J. Smith had seven brigades with his detachment, five 16th Corps Brigades, and two from the 17th Corps in a provisional division that had been left at Alexandria I think. Part of that 17th Corps detachment joined Sturgis' expedition that ended at Brice's. I had been under the impression that the two brigades of Mower's division of the 16th Corps would have rejoined the Memphis Garrison either way.

Okolona was a rear guard action that succeeded in allowing Sooy Smith to return to Memphis with his wagon train of escaped slaves. I'd hardly say that's whipped.

 

[uaskme]

I keep seeing this, do you have a link to where Thomas suggested pushing the army through Snake Creek Gap?

There's a huge problem with this as a plan: Snake Creek Gap held a 7 mile long narrow road that wouldn't support wagons moving through simultaneously with the troops. McPherson's men pushed through the gap with what they could carry, three days rations and 60 rounds of ammo, while pioneers worked improving the road. It wouldn't be until 4 days later that the road was widened sufficiently for the wagons.

60 rounds of ammo is sufficient for about 3 hours of semi-sustained fighting. Meanwhile, Johnston could have his entire army back to Resaca within a day. Did Thomas address how the army was supposed to maintain sufficient supplies?

They could have dropped the wagons. McPherson went as far to get opposition. In sight of the RR cut. Thomas was familiar with the area. Had been there in April on a recon to see where the Confederates were. And where they weren't.

It's not controversial. https://emergingcivilwar.com/2022/08/10/what-if-george-thomas-had-marched-through-snake-creek-gap/

 

[tony_gunter]

They could have dropped the wagons. McPherson went as far to get opposition. In sight of the RR cut. Thomas was familiar with the area. Had been there in April on a recon to see where the Confederates were. And where they weren't.

It's not controversial. https://emergingcivilwar.com/2022/08/10/what-if-george-thomas-had-marched-through-snake-creek-gap

"They could have dropped the wagons"

That's the whole point. It's one thing to push a force through the gap and hold it open while your pioneers widen the road for wagons.

It's a whole different plan to push an army through for sustained combat when they can't be resupplied for four days.

Nothing in that link addresses the logistics of such a move.

 

[uaskme]

"They could have dropped the wagons"

That's the whole point. It's one thing to push a force through the gap and hold it open while your pioneers widen the road for wagons.

It's a whole different plan to push an army through for sustained combat when they can't be resupplied for four days.

Nothing in that link addresses the logistics of such a move.

You ask for a quote that said Thomas ask Sherman to use the AOC?

Use the search function. Thread about it year or so ago. Go argue with it.

 

[tony_gunter]

You ask for a quote that said Thomas ask Sherman to use the AOC?

Use the search function. Thread about it year or so ago. Go argue with it.

I was just curious if it had progressed past a rudimentary suggestion into a plan that included how to supply an army over a 7 mile long road that's not wide enough to bring along the wagons with the army.

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

Okolona was a rear guard action that succeeded in allowing Sooy Smith to return to Memphis with his wagon train of escaped slaves. I'd hardly say that's whipped.

Sooy Smith suffered double the casualties of Forrest, despite outnumbering Forrest better than 2:1. While the battle achieved Sooy Smith's objective, his overall handling of the campaign destroyed his career.

 

[tony_gunter]

Sooy Smith suffered double the casualties of Forrest, despite outnumbering Forrest better than 2:1. While the battle achieved Sooy Smith's objective, his overall handling of the campaign destroyed his career.

Smith had about 7,200 troops total, Forrest had about 4,600. Not all troops of either side participated, and that's a function of Smith's plan for the retreat. Smith's operational goal at that point was to break contact with Forrest and return to Tennessee with his wagon train of escaped slaves and captured contraband, and he achieved that goal.

Forrest has plenty of amazing victories against overwhelming odds without the need to invent one.

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

Forrest had about 4,600

I can't find a source crediting him with more than 2500.

 

[tony_gunter]

I can't find a source crediting him with more than 2500.

That's because he had split his forces into three wings to trap Smith. Smith recognized the trap, sent out scouts to verify that Sherman had already left Meridian, feigned an attack on Forrest's left wing, and put a day between himself and Forrest.

Forrest brought all that he could to Okolona, Smith left what force he felt was sufficient to serve as rear guard.

 

[rbasin]

Sherman's original plan had been to use the Army of the Tennessee on a long flanking march to Rome, Georgia. Historically, the entanglement of A.J. Smith's 10,000 men in the Red River Campaign and the fact that 10,000 of XVII Corps were still on furlough derailed this plan entirely, resulting in Sherman turning to Thomas' Snake Creek Gap plan.

As with hypotheticals, it's impossible to say if Sherman would have gone with his Rome plan given that he was still 10,000 men short of his original vision. As it was, the plan had merit: it could potentially get in between Leonidas Polk's Army of Mississippi in Alabama and Johnston's army in Georgia as well as put a strong force just 20 miles away from the Western & Atlantic Railroad, Johnston's lifeline. Still, this would be a very hard ask for an army of just 35,000 and would have required a far more bold and daring commander than McPherson.

If Sherman went back to doing the Snake Creek Gap plan, that gives McPherson an extra 10,000 men to move against Resaca - it's again impossible to say if McPherson would have been more aggressive.

This does open the question: if A.J. Smith is in the Atlanta Campaign with Sherman, who's guarding Sherman's lifeline?

And Sherman still messed up snake creek gap.

 

[uaskme]

And Sherman still messed up snake creek gap.

He wasn't known as a brilliant tactician.

 

[uaskme]

AJ Smith saved Sherman and Grant, the two fisted drinkers Arse at Nashville, @gipratt knows something about that. Maybe his service was worth more being away from Sherman?

 

[tony_gunter]

I can't find a source crediting him with more than 2500.

Here's a member of the movement describing the order of battle as they concentrate at Oxford:

"Thursday, 11th.-The regiment moved down to Oxford. Here our wagon train, which we had left on the Mobile and Ohio Railroad, met us. The Second Tennessee was attached to the Third Brigade of Forrest's Cavalry, commanded by Colonel T. H. Bell. We now for the first time belong to a brigade composed of Tennesseans. We found that Major-General Forrest had organized his command into four brigades, as follows:
The First, commanded by Brigadier-General R. V. Richardson, was composed of five regiments, commanded by Lieutenant-Colonel J. U. Green, Colonels F. M. Stewart, T. H. Logwood, and J. J. Neely, and Major Marshall; and two battalions, commanded by Street and Bennett, all West Tennessee troops, one thousand five hundred rank and file. The Second, Colonel Robert McCulloch (Second Mis- souri) commanding, was made up of the Second Missouri Regiment (commanded by Lieutenant-Colonel R. A. McCulloch), Leo Willis' Texan Battalion, Colonel W. W. Faulkner's Kentucky Regiment, Keizer's Tennessee Battalion, A. H. Chalmers' Mississippi Battalion, and a fragment of the Second Arkansas Cavalry (commanded by Captain F. M. Cochran). The Third, under Colonel Tyree H. Bell, was constituted of Colonels Russell's, Wilson's, and Barteau's Tennessee regiments. And the Fourth, commanded by Colonel J. E. Forrest, was formed of McDonald's Battalion (General For- rest's old regiment), W. L. Duckworth's Tennessee Regiment, John McGuirk's Mississippi Regiment, the Fifth Mississippi Regiment and Duff's Mississippi Battalion-one thousand strong. McCulloch's and Forrest's Brigades were organized
into a division, commanded by Brigadier-General James
R. Chalmers."

That's at least 4600 men in four brigades.