1864 Springfield used in 1863?

[tchyfeeley78]

Hi all,
I've come across an interesting rifle from a guy who's great-grandfather brought it back from the civil war. The gentleman that owned it has some history in the small town where he settled. He served the Union for about 6 months from 1862-1863....but the rifle he brought back was this 1864? Is this even possible?
I don't get the feeling this guy is being shady.... I think he might not really know. I really want to believe the history as it would be neat, but not sure of how to check the rifle age or what to look for.

 

[kfranklin]

Do you have any pictures? Are you sure it's a US pattern 1864 rifled musket not a Colt contract US pattern 1861?

 

[tchyfeeley78]

I'm not 100% sure....but here's a link to some of the photos he posted. It looks a lot like the 1864 Springfield to me, but I'm not as well trained as those in this forum probably
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zfg7si711b7aito/AAA0Vo82Fne4JWmyID7THWkta

It is pretty clearly stamped Springfield on the side, not Colt.

 

[Brendan]

Who knows...family stories get mixed up over time. It could have come from a different relative of the man who's selling it. Or maybe this ancestor served another term that his descendents forgot about? My grandfather gave me his bayonet which he said went to his M1 carbine he carried in WW2. When I saw the 16" blade I knew right away something was off. I looked up the markings and discovered...it was Japanese! To deepen the mystery, my grandfather served in Europe. He swore up and down it was his M1 bayonet but that was clearly not the case. The best we could figure is that maybe my great uncle, who served in the Navy in the Pacific, might have brought it back.

In your case, it could be as simple as, "We have a Civil War rifle musket in the attic. Grandpa was in the war, it must have been his." Or, "hey Gramps, where's this musket from?" "Must be the one I got in the war." And the assumption or false memory becomes fact. Not necessarily anything nefarious.

 

[tchyfeeley78]

Who knows...family stories get mixed up over time. It could have come from a different relative of the man who's selling it. Or maybe this ancestor served another term that his descendents forgot about? My grandfather gave me his bayonet which he said went to his M1 carbine he carried in WW2. When I saw the 16" blade I knew right away something was off. I looked up the markings and discovered...it was Japanese! To deepen the mystery, my grandfather served in Europe. He swore up and down it was his M1 bayonet but that was clearly not the case. The best we could figure is that maybe my great uncle, who served in the Navy in the Pacific, might have brought it back.

In your case, it could be as simple as, "We have a Civil War rifle musket in the attic. Grandpa was in the war, it must have been his." Or, "hey Gramps, where's this musket from?" "Must be the one I got in the war." And the assumption or false memory becomes fact. Not necessarily anything nefarious.

Ha! Very true....In this case the great-grandfather's life (and time in the service) was outlined in an old small town newspaper where he lived for the rest of his life. I guess he has some business success after the war and donated back to his small community quite a bit. He can prove his relation to the man, so that was what sparked my interest at least. He' not asking an insane amount for the rifle either....

 

[wilber6150]

What ever the story is, nice looking peice of history you have there...

 

[huskerblitz]

Could the lock plate have been repaired/changed afterwards with a the newer '64 plate?

 

[tchyfeeley78]

Could the lock plate have been repaired/changed afterwards with a the newer '64 plate?

It's possible, but I don't think his relative knows. All he knows was this belonged to his great-grandfather who served in the war. My thinking is...this wasn't his grandfather's service weapon, but probably something he picked up after he got out. His grandfather was a member of Grand Army of the Republic which was retired veterans of the war. I'm thinking his grandfather picked this up when he was part of that group.

 

[huskerblitz]

Yeah, this may be one of those situations where you have to go with your best guess. So many variables that cannot be addressed to to 100% sure.

 

[kfranklin]

Sorry I hate to be that guy, but this isn't a complete 1864. It looks to be a frankenrifle, which were rifles that were put together by many retailers after the war and sold to consumers as hunting rifles and shotguns.

 

[James N.]

The high, curved hammer that is one of the hallmarks of a '61 is a holdover from the '55 rifles and was redesigned for the '63, so this does seem to be a '61 lock. This is not in itself a problem, since '61's continued to be produced even after the adoption of the new model '63. ( Of course the 1864 date makes it impossible it belonged to a soldier serving in 1861 - 63. ) However, the piece has had considerable alteration, like the screw through what appears to be a '63 barrel band. ( '61 bands were flat. ) Also, you probably realize this has been "sporterized" and likely turned into a fowling piece or shotgun and in doing so not only has the forearm of the stock been cut off, but the sights removed also. If what you want is a representative Civil War rifle or musket, this once was or at least is made up of period parts, but it never appeared on any battlefield looking like this.

Welcome to the Forums!

Edit: The saying among collectors is Buy the piece - not the story and this one just doesn't add up.

 

[tchyfeeley78]

Very interesting.....boy I'm sure glad I stopped here in the forums before I did anything. I knew something didn't seem quite right when the owners service time didn't quite line up with the rifle dates.
Like I said, his great-great grandson doesn't seem to know much more than "it belonged to this great-great grandfather"...he's been pretty forth coming with information.
Thanks all!

 

[kfranklin]

In all fairness the story the rifle has is probably kind of cool. Basically it went from a weapon of armies or a tool of civilians telling of the transition from wartime to peacetime.

 

[kevikens]

This could be a Bannerman "parts gun" from the late 19th Century. I once knew an elderly lady who showed me the musket her grandfather had carried at Gettysburg. It had been brought home by him and placed over that mantelpiece and rested there ever since. It was a Springfield Trapdoor, model 1884.

 

[chellers]

Welcome to CivilWarTalk.

 

[Craig L Barry]

Yes, this is a put together probably post-bellum. It is a testament to the parts interchangeability of the output of Springfield Armory because there are a variety of different US model parts slapped onto this one.