1861 Springfield lock help

[TheTyler701]

Hey guys, l have an 1861 Springfield from Welch, Brown, and Co. and the springs are quite strong, but lt doesn't have a half cock anymore.

The problem ls l can't seem to take the lock off. Theirs nothing really to grab onto.

Any hacks or simple ways to remove the lock on these old guns? lts surprising because the gun ls ln great shape. Wouldn't seem like lt would be hard to take lt off.

Thx

 

[hawknknife]

Cock the hammer to full cock, loosen the two large lock screws, the ones on the opposite side of the lock, when they are loose and are free from the lock plate, gently tap the heads and the entire lock should fall off. Be gentle so to not knock any wood slivers loose from around the lock plate.

 

[TheTyler701]

What do you mean by "heads"?

 

[gary]

I think he means the head the screws. I'd use a piece of wood (wood mallet, rawhide mallet or a simple pine 2 x 4).

BTW, I suspect the "V' spring that provides tension for the sear is weak or broken. The spring forces the sear down so it engages the full cock notch of the tumbler. Or the notch on the tumbler could be broken too and thus nothing for the sear to engage.

If you have to replace a part, keep the original.

 

[TheTyler701]

I think he means the head the screws. I'd use a piece of wood (wood mallet, rawhide mallet or a simple pine 2 x 4).

BTW, I suspect the "V' spring that provides tension for the sear is weak or broken. The spring forces the sear down so it engages the full cock notch of the tumbler. Or the notch on the tumbler could be broken too and thus nothing for the sear to engage.

If you have to replace a part, keep the original.

The spring ls bery strong and full cock holds well, just doesn't have a half cock

 

[gary]

How's the half cock notch?

 

[TheTyler701]

How's the half cock notch?

Got the lock off, theirs no half cock notch! lt looks like someone grinded down the notch or something. This ls a contract musket with "Norfolk" on the lock. Just making sure, theirs no way this gun came without a half cock right?

Do l have to have a proper vice to replace the tumbler or can l manage with pliers? And how difficult of a task ls lt? l plan on selling the weapon, but lm sure the buyer will want one with half cock.

 

[TheTyler701]

How's the half cock notch?

This ls on full cock. Might be hard to see

 

[gary]

I see that flat spot where the half cock notch used to be. Do not use pliers but use a vise. There is a special tool (mainspring vise), but a bench vise is the easiest. Lock jaw pliers can scratch up things so I'm against using them. Even a 1" C-clamp is better.

If you buy a new tumbler, you must fit it.

Got a vise? Put the mainspring into the smooth jaw vise and compress it. This will allow you to separate the mainspring from the lock.
Remove the sear screw and then remove the sear spring and then lift off the sear.
Remove any bridle screw and lift off the bridle.
Remove the hammer screw.
I use a piece of square brass that is ground to find the hole where the hammer screw was.
Place the lock plate on two pieces of wood such that it supports the plate as close as possible to both sides of the tumbler.
Place the square brass drift and tap lightly with a mallet. No heavy whacks. You don't want to bend the lock plate.
This should complete the disassembly.

Check the new tumbler. It should fit flush against the lockplate. Any canting will cause friction and drag. Smoke and file.
Place the hammer onto the tumbler. You may have to put it in the vise and squeeze it to slip the hammer over the tumbler.
Install the tumbler screw and tighten.
Install the sear and then the sear screw.
Install the sear spring. Be sure to hook it into the notch in the lockplate so that there is tension on the sear.
Install the bridle and screws.
Put the mainspring into a vise and compress it. Place the lockplate onto it such that the curved arm of the mainspring hooks onto the tumbler.
Open the vise.

Now that it's reassembled, test the half cock. Pull the hammer back and it should catch now. Pull the hammer back all the way and it should catch on full cock. Push the back of the hammer slightly. You're seeing if the tumbler is held by the sear. OK, if it does, then put your thumb on the hammer and release the sear. Allow the hammer to move forward. Install the lock. Put a piece of rubber on the nipple and cock the hammer and release it. It should snap forward sharply. If so, then....

Voila! You're done and you didn't know you were an armorer, did you?

 

[TheTyler701]

I see that flat spot where the half cock notch used to be. Do not use pliers but use a vise. There is a special tool (mainspring vise), but a bench vise is the easiest. Lock jaw pliers can scratch up things so I'm against using them. Even a 1" C-clamp is better.

If you buy a new tumbler, you must fit it.

Got a vise? Put the mainspring into the smooth jaw vise and compress it. This will allow you to separate the mainspring from the lock.
Remove the sear screw and then remove the sear spring and then lift off the sear.
Remove any bridle screw and lift off the bridle.
Remove the hammer screw.
I use a piece of square brass that is ground to find the hole where the hammer screw was.
Place the lock plate on two pieces of wood such that it supports the plate as close as possible to both sides of the tumbler.
Place the square brass drift and tap lightly with a mallet. No heavy whacks. You don't want to bend the lock plate.
This should complete the disassembly.

Check the new tumbler. It should fit flush against the lockplate. Any canting will cause friction and drag. Smoke and file.
Place the hammer onto the tumbler. You may have to put it in the vise and squeeze it to slip the hammer over the tumbler.
Install the tumbler screw and tighten.
Install the sear and then the sear screw.
Install the sear spring. Be sure to hook it into the notch in the lockplate so that there is tension on the sear.
Install the bridle and screws.
Put the mainspring into a vise and compress it. Place the lockplate onto it such that the curved arm of the mainspring hooks onto the tumbler.
Open the vise.

Now that it's reassembled, test the half cock. Pull the hammer back and it should catch now. Pull the hammer back all the way and it should catch on full cock. Push the back of the hammer slightly. You're seeing if the tumbler is held by the sear. OK, if it does, then put your thumb on the hammer and release the sear. Allow the hammer to move forward. Install the lock. Put a piece of rubber on the nipple and cock the hammer and release it. It should snap forward sharply. If so, then....

Voila! You're done and you didn't know you were an armorer, did you?

Thanks for that. Would you recommend l buy an original Tumbler, or would lt also have to be fitted?

 

[gary]

The advantage of an original is that it is likely forged and milled. Replicas are probably investment casted. Given the same price, then the next thing I'd look at are the sear notches. Cracks or missing bits? How sharp are the angles? Take a steel rule to the bearing surface of the prospective part. See how level it is. If you have the lockplate, see how it moves. Nice and even? No high spots on the side that bears against the lockplate and the side the bridle bears against?

BTW, put a drop of oil on the working surfaces before you reinstall the lock into the stock. Good luck.

 

[frontrank2]

If all else fails, send the lock to http://www.lodgewood.com/ They fixed my JP Murray carbine lock, new tumbler and sear, for less than $65 with the shipping. But DO keep your old parts.

 

[TheTyler701]

If all else fails, send the lock to http://www.lodgewood.com/ They fixed my JP Murray carbine lock, new tumbler and sear, for less than $65 with the shipping. But DO keep your old parts.

Appreciate that. Thx

 

[JOHN42768]

Good advise

 

[Jobe Holiday]

Any restoration work on an original arm should always be done with original parts if possible. And, yes Lodgewood is a reputable business.
J.

 

[Craig L Barry]

I can honestly say I have never seen a lock where somebody filed off the half cock notch, which is the safety position. The good thing with a US model 1861 is that there is a strong likelihood of not only finding an original tumbler, but also of the part working as intended with only minor fitting. If this was a Birmingham contractor produced P53 Enfield, you would be off on an entirely different kind of adventure.

Lastly, I would ship it off to Lodgewood Mfg to have the repairs done.

 

[TheTyler701]

I can honestly say I have never seen a lock where somebody filed off the half cock notch, which is the safety position. The good thing with a US model 1861 is that there is a strong likelihood of not only finding an original tumbler, but also of the part working as intended with only minor fitting. If this was a Birmingham contractor produced P53 Enfield, you would be off on an entirely different kind of adventure.

Lastly, I would ship it off to Lodgewood Mfg to have the repairs done.

Thanks. lve messages them but l haven't gotten a reply.

 

[Jobe Holiday]

Actually, I have seen the half-cock removed from muskets! It was usually done when there was a sear or full-cock failure, which would cause the sear to catch in the half-cock notch when the arm was fired. An example is if the tip breaks off the sear, and another one is filed into the remaining part of the sear, when released it will not pass the half-cock notch. To alleviate the problem these ingenious individuals removed the half-cock notch, thereby allowing the arm to be fired again without it stopping at half-cock. Historically, in the late percussion era, it was not uncommon to have locks built that never had a provision for a half-cock notch on the tumbler. I say this from personal experience with a number of late period percussion civilian rifles. Perhaps this musket is the result of some civilian who just didn't want the half-cock notch!
J.

 

[gary]

Worked on a replica Brown Bess lock that dropped from full cock to half cock. Think of a circle which the tumbler is -- if you consider the pivot hole as the axle. If you cut or grind off part of the circle, the sear can rise and catch on the half-cock. My solution was to put a bit of weld onto the tumbler to restore the circle and cause the sear not to engage prematurely. As Craig Barry suggested, if you don't want to d o it yourself, then send it off to Lodgewood.

 

[hawknknife]

Craig, I have seen a number of military muskets with the half cock notch removed so the lock would be altered for "target firing". The sear would be altered to slightly engage the the fullcock notch in the tumbler or reduce the dept of the full cock notch on the tumbler so slight pressure on the trigger would trip the lock. (Poor man's set trigger) The state of Mississippi's ordinance officer wrote of a number of muskets being altered for "target" firing of the guns inspected as issued to the Port Gibson Militia company. If the half cock notch is not removed, the hammer would engage this notch on the way down instead of falling to the nipple. I have a Mississippi rifle altered like this.