The Crater at Petersburg

[CSA Today]

When you find it, please post it - I don't own a copy of either or I would check myself.

Will do.

 

[Elennsar]

So going back to the Crater, we have bungled generalship, black troops being shot both by "friend" and foe, and a big, but possibly too big, explosion.

SNAFUville.

 

[IcarusPhoenix]

Actually, other than the word "often", this is true. There is documented evidence that SOME white Union soldiers participated in the slaughter of the USCT troops:

Here's another source backing the claim of White Union soldiers killing Black Union soldiers in the Crater, this time in George L. Kilmer's Century Magazine article on the Crater in volume 34, Number 5:

I am of course perfectly aware of the incidents that occurred within the desperation of the Crater, but as has been pointed out, our newest, er, "Scholar" made the claim that this was something that happened "often", and, as usual, did so without citing any particular reference for that claim.

So going back to the Crater, we have bungled generalship, black troops being shot both by "friend" and foe, and a big, but possibly too big, explosion.

SNAFUville.

I think the size of the explosion was perfectly reasonable; it was the shape of the explosion that was the problem. Apparently, no one thought to check with a munitions expert, so rather than placing the explosives so that the blast would be outwards towards the flanks of the Confederate trench above the mine, they just made one hole that was far too deep and far too tempting to troops who had not been briefed in what they should have been doing. That so few Confederate soldiers were killed by a blast that size is a testament to how extraordinarily badly places the explosives really were.

 

[Elennsar]

I think the size of the explosion was perfectly reasonable; it was the shape of the explosion that was the problem. Apparently, no one thought to check with a munitions expert, so rather than placing the explosives so that the blast would be outwards towards the flanks of the Confederate trench above the mine, they just made one hole that was far too deep and far too tempting to troops who had not been briefed in what they should have been doing. That so few Confederate soldiers were killed by a blast that size is a testament to how extraordinarily badly places the explosives really were.

Which raises the question. Pleasants and his regiment did the digging, but did he also decide how to lay out the explosives?

 

[Civil War Scholar]

Keyser Soze,
The definition of atrocity is:

• shockingly cruel act: a shockingly cruel act, especially an act of wanton violence against an enemy in wartime

• extreme cruelty: extreme evil or cruelty

• something very bad: something repellent or extremely bad of its kind

The blowing up of a mine under sleeping men is a barbarous act. Using yours and Sherman's approach, you may justify every barbarous action in every war Deleted as modern political commentary, which is forbidden under forum rules. By Moderator Nathanb1
Civil War Scholar.


Folks, you agreed to the membership terms and rules when you joined. If you have a question about what you agreed to, direct it to a moderator or civilwartalk..

 

[Civil War Scholar]

To cash.
I didn't try to weasel out any claim. First, it was a disclaimer and second, even your misinterpretation of that claim is true.
The incident happened in February 1864. The two companies remained in the Union Army at gunpoint. Nice treatment, eh?
Where was Kilpatrick's proof that Robinson did what he did intentionally? Without having it, he went on and hanged the poor man.
I bet yours carries more weight than mine. DELETED BY MODERATOR NATHANB1; MODERN POLITICAL COMMENTARY. Surely, your claim will fly.
Civil War Scholar.

 

[Copperhead-mi]

Actually, other than the word "often", this is true. There is documented evidence that SOME white Union soldiers participated in the slaughter of the USCT troops:

One Union report alludes to the possibility that bayonets were at least used to prod "men into the works and [hold] them there until they were enabled to contribute to the defense." Another report notes that "panic-stricken" retreating black troops were wounding Union troops with their bayonets in an attempt to escape the crater. It doesn't take much of an imagination to figure out what one may do if faced with injury or death from his own retreating troops, especially troops made up of individuals not considered peers by many at the time.

"SIR: In comp1iance with your orders, I have the honor to report the action of my brigade in the battle before Petersburg, Va., July 30, 1864.
I left my position in the trenches near the Hare house at 10 p.m. July 29, and marched in rear of the division to a point in front of General Burnside's headquarters, where the brigade halted and rested until ordered forward, at 3 a. m. July 30, to the high cleared ground in rear of the artillery of the Ninth Corps. At 7 a.m. I was ordered forward through the covered way leading to the right and the line in rear of the enemy's fort, which had been blown up. In reaching this position I was obliged to march a greater part of the way in single file and found the road continually obstructed with stragglers and parties of men returning with the wounded, carried in blankets, and by from four to ten men to each wounded man. Having worked my way to the head of this passage, was ordered to form my brigade in column, by battalion, in rear of our advanced earthwork, and there await further orders. While executing this movement, and before the right battalion was in position, the charge then being made by our troops from the crater in our front was checked and the troops came rushing back to their late position, thence to the rear and over the works behind which I was forming. A greater part of the line I had formed at the breast-works, as well as those occupying the line in advance, unaccountably gave way and broke through my troops to the rear. The retreating force became so great that I placed at this time but two regiments, the One hundred and forty-second and One hundred and twelfth New York Volunteers, in the position first ordered. The remaining two regiments, the Third and One hundred and seventeenth New York Volunteers, were halted in the covered way, with direction to stop the stragglers. The conduct of the officers and men of my command in attempting to stop the retreating mass and check the advancing enemy was most satisfactory. With fixed bayonets they forced officers and men into the works and held them there until they were enabled to contribute to the defense....
I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant
MARTIN N. CURTIS,
Colonel 142d New York Volunteers, Commanding Brigade.
O.R. Series I, Volume 40, Part I, pg.701

_________________________________________________________________________


CAPTAIN: I have the honor to submit the following report of the part taken by the brigade under my command in the action of July 30 before Petersburg:
The brigade moved from the line of works at 11 p. m. July 29, and marched through the line of works occupied by the Ninth Corps. At 2.30 the brigade was formed in column of regiments, deployed en masse in an angle formed by the trenches. After the mine was sprung, in obedience to orders, I moved the brigade to the line of works next the works of the enemy, and very soon after again formed column of regiments, deployed. I received an order to move forward to the line we had taken from the enemy, gaining as much ground to the right as practicable. On arriving at the works I put the brigade in line as well as I could do it under the severe fire, holding one regiment in reserve.

After remaining at this place for some time I sent a staff officer for instructions, and received orders to gain as much ground to the right as I could, and to assault the battery on my right when the Ninth Corps advanced. I directed the regiment held in reserve to form on the right. On this regiment moving they were met by a severe fire. At this moment all the colored troops in my front broke and came back, dashing through my men with arms at a trail and bayonets fixed. The officers and men of my command tried to resist the dash of those retreating but to no avail. Quite a number of my men were wounded by the bayonets of the retreating troops, and the brigade was disorganized by the large number of fugitives passing through it. After vainly attempting to reform the brigade under a severe enfilading fire from both the right and left, the enemy being near us in front also, I fell back from this line to the one I had previously occupied, and after holding this line some three hours was relieved by other troops and marched to the rear. Had my command not been run over and confused by the mob of panic-stricken negroes I could have held the position I occupied against any force then visible, though I should have met with a severe loss in doing so, owing to the sharp fire, almost enfilading my line from both right and left.
I have the honor to be, captain, most respectfully, your obedient servant,
LOUIS BELL,
Colonel, Commanding Brigade.
O.R. Series I, Volume 40, Part I, pp.704-705

 

[KeyserSoze]

Keyser Soze,
The definition of atrocity is:

• shockingly cruel act: a shockingly cruel act, especially an act of wanton violence against an enemy in wartime

• extreme cruelty: extreme evil or cruelty

• something very bad: something repellent or extremely bad of its kind

The blowing up of a mine under sleeping men is a barbarous act. Using yours and Sherman's approach, you may justify every barbarous action in every war. EDITED BY MODERATOR IN ORIGINAL POST.
Civil War Scholar.

So I guess artillery can only fire during normal working hours, armies have to inform the other side before they attack in order to ensure nobody is sleeping, and everyone has to take care to ensure that they only kill the other side in a respectful manner. Grow up. War is cruelty, extreme cruelty. The goal in war is to beat your enemy, to destroy his armies and eliminate his will to fight. If the neo-reb complaint now is that the Yankees didn't fight fair then I guess all I can offer is another quote from the great man himself: "If the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war, and not popularity seeking."

 

[Civil War Scholar]

Keyser Soze,
***deleted by jgoodguy violation of site rules*** In an assault, or in an artillery barrage there is response from the other side. When somebody attacks, the other side defends. When an artillery barrage takes place, the other side tries to eliminate the fire. When a mine is blown under the feet of sleeping men, there can be no resistance. It is unfair. Sherman said what he said in order to "justify" his war on Georgia civilians.
Civil War Scholar.

 

[Rebforever]

Sometimes misinterpretation can throw off a discussion pretty quick.

I am of course perfectly aware of the incidents that occurred within the desperation of the Crater, but as has been pointed out, our newest, er, "Scholar" made the claim that this was something that happened "often", and, as usual, did so without citing any particular reference for that claim.

I get this to mean during the battle seeing as how that is the OP.

 

[KeyserSoze]

Keyser Soze,
What you are doing is pretty irritating.

I know exactly how you feel.

You are showing you are immature yourself. In an assault, or in an artillery barrage there is response from the other side. When somebody attacks, the other side defends. When an artillery barrage takes place, the other side tries to eliminate the fire. When a mine is blown under the feet of sleeping men, there can be no resistance. It is unfair.

Oh my! Something in war was unfair? Perish the thought! </sarcasm>

Sherman said what he said in order to "justify" his war on Georgia civilians.
Civil War Scholar.

Don't like that one? Then how about this one? Does it sum it up beter? "War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over." Where is Sherman wrong in that?

 

[Civil War Scholar]

Keyser Soze,
In fact, everything in a war is unfair, but blowing up a mine under men who can't resist it is the embodiment of unfairness.
Sherman was extremely brutal. His total war was a crime against the people of a state. Lee said that "Heaven will not bless our cause if we wage war on civilians". Sherman said "War is cruelty. You cannot refine it." Lee's men never pillaged a home or mistreated a civilian or wounded and captive enemy. Sherman did everything he could do to wipe Georgia and the Carolinas out of the maps. Judge them accordingly and decide: who is the civilized man and who is the barbarian?
Civil War Scholar.

 

[ErnieMac]

Keyser Soze,
Lee's men never pillaged a home or mistreated a civilian or wounded and captive enemy.
Civil War Scholar.

Unless you consider the free black Pennsylvania civilians that were taken south at gunpoint and sold into slavery.

 

[Civil War Scholar]

ErnieMac,
Where did you read it? Lee's men never did a thing like that. In a book, I read that a Pennsylvania housewife asked a Negro soldier of Lee's army how he was treated. He replied that he was treated as he wanted and, if he wasn't satisfied, he could just escape there, in Pennsylvania.
Civil War Scholar.

 

[ErnieMac]

It's noted in quite a few histories of the campaign, but here's a couple articles to start.
http://deadconfederates.com/2010/07/01/old-pete-slave-raids-and-the-gettysburg-campaign/
http://www.timesdispatch.com/opinio...cle_41fe942b-567d-5aaf-8564-2ba611cdf079.html

 

[Civil War Scholar]

The articles were everything but neutral. Foote, Long and Freeman never reported it. Where's a copy of Longstreet's order?
Civil War Scholar.

 

[CSA Today]

It's noted in quite a few histories of the campaign, but here's a couple articles to start.
http://deadconfederates.com/2010/07/01/old-pete-slave-raids-and-the-gettysburg-campaign/
http://www.timesdispatch.com/opinio...cle_41fe942b-567d-5aaf-8564-2ba611cdf079.html

For goodness sakes, using the Dead Confederate blog as a source? The very title screams severe bias.

 

[ErnieMac]

The articles were everything but neutral. Foote, Long and Freeman never reported it. Where's a copy of Longstreet's order?
Civil War Scholar.

Official Records Series 1, Volume 51, Part 2, Pages 732 - 733.

HEADQUARTERS FIRST ARMY CORPS,
Greenwood, Pa., July 1, 1863-10,30 a. m.

Major General G. E. PICKETT,
Commanding Division:

As directed yesterday evening, if relieved in time to-day by General Imboden, the commanding general desires you to come on this evening as far as this point, and to follow on after the remainder of the command across the mountains to-morrow morning. If you do not start from the vicinity of Chambersburg before to-morrow you may move on across the mountain without stopping here. When you arrive here, either this evening or to-morrow, the commanding general wishes you to relieve a brigade of General Hood at New Guilford, and send it forward to rejoin his division. Your own brigade will in turn be relieved by General Imboden when he gets here and sent on to rejoin you. The captured constrabands had better be brought along with you for further disposition.

I am, general, very respectfully, your obedient servant,

G. M. SORREL,
Assistant Adjutant-General.

 

[Civil War Scholar]

Sounds a bit ambiguous, since Longstreet was opposed to slavery and ****. The order mentions "contrabands", which was a term not only given by Butler to negroes he captured, but to seized goods.
Civil War Scholar.

 

[Copperhead-mi]

Sounds a bit ambiguous, since Longstreet was opposed to slavery and ****. The order mentions "contrabands", which was a term not only given by Butler to negroes he captured, but to seized goods.
Civil War Scholar.

A letter from Confederate Col. William Steptoe Christian, who was the commanding officer of the 55th Virginia of the Second Brigade, Heth's Division:

"My own darling wife: You can see by the date of this that we are now in Pennsylvania. We crossed the line day before yesterday and are resting today near a little one-horse town on the road to Gettysburg, which we will reach tomorrow. We are paying back these people for some of the damage they have done us, though we are not doing them half as bad as they done us. We are getting up all the horses, etc., and feeding our army with their beef and flour, etc., but there are strict orders about the interruption of any private property by individual soldiers.
Though with these orders, fowls and pigs and eatables don't stand much chance. I felt when I first came here that I would like to revenge myself upon these people for the desolation they have brought upon our own beautiful home, that home where we could have lived so happy, and that we loved so much, from which their vandalism has driven you and my helpless little ones. But though I had such severe wrongs and grievances to redress and such great cause for revenge, yet when I got among these people I could not find it in my heart to molest them. They looked so dreadfully scared and talked so humble that I have invariably endeavored to protect their property and have prevented soldiers from taking chickens, even in the main road; yet there is a good deal of plundering going on, confined principally to the taking of provisions. No houses were searched and robbed, like our houses were done by the Yankees. Pigs, chickens, geese, etc., are finding their way into our camp; it can't be prevented, and I can't think it ought to be. We must show them something of war. I have sent out today to get a good horse; I have no scruples about that, as they have taken mine. We took a lot of Negr0es yesterday. I was offered my choice, but as I could not get them back home I would not take them. In fact my humanity revolted at taking the poor devils away from their homes. They were so scared that I turned them all loose.
I dined yesterday with two old maids. They treated me very well and seemed greatly in favor of peace. I have had a great deal of fun since I have been here. The country that we have passed through is beautiful, and everything in the greatest abundance. You never saw such a land of plenty. We could live here mighty well for the next twelve months, but I suppose old Hooker will try to put a stop to us pretty soon. Of course we will have to fight here, and when it comes it will be the biggest on record. Our men feel that there is to be no back-out. A defeat here would be ruinous. This army has never done such fighting as it will do now, and if we can whip the armies that are now gathering to oppose us, we will have everything in our own hands. We must conquer a peace. If we can come out of this country triumphant and victorious, having established a peace, we will bring back to our own land the greatest joy that ever crowned a people. We will show the Yankees this time how we can fight. Be of good cheer, and write often to your fondly attached husband.
Wm. S. CHRISTIAN."

An eyewitness who was a resident of the town:

"A terrible day. The guerillas passing and repassing, one of the saddest of sights, several of our colored persons with them, to be sold into slavery, John Philkill and Findlay Cuff. The officer with a squad of men has just passed up street making proclamation of something. I have just been to the door to inquire what it is. It is that they intend to search all houses for contrabands and firearms and that wherever they discover either they will set fire to the house in which they may be found."
_Diary of the Rev. Thomas Creigh_, Mercersburg, Pennsylvania, June 26, 1863

"About 1 p. m., a company of guerillas came into town, numbering about 60 and took off goods from Messrs. Fritzgerald and Shannon, and six or seven of our free people of color. This visit was the most terrific of any we have had. It was brief, but O, it was terrible."
ibid, July 1, 1863

An order from the Confederate Assistant Secretary of War to release a "free negr0 from Pennsylvania":

CONFEDERATE STATES OF AMERICA, WAR DEPARTMENT,
Richmond, Va., December 14, 1863.
Brig. Gen. JOHN H. WINDER:

GENERAL: You will dispose of prisoners named below, embraced in Report, No. 146, of Maj. I. H. Carrington, indicated, viz: Joseph A. Marm, William Tennant, John E. Tennant; send to conscript camp. You will also deliver to Robert Ould, esq., commissioner for exchange, to be transferred to the United States by the first flag of-truce boat, Amos Bares, a free negr0 from Pennsylvania, whose release is applied for by the Rev. T. V. Moore, of this city, upon grounds which appear to the Department sufficient to justify an exceptional policy with regard to him.
By order of the Secretary of War:
J. A. CAMPBELL,
Assistant Secretary of War.
O. R. Series 2, Volume 6, pp. 704-705