Ebenezer creek

[PartywithArty]

You started this thread to try to tie Sherman into the deaths of slaves. The source YOU posted described the deaths of those slaves by Wheelers men.. If you disagree with your own source then go have a argument with yourself...

how many slaves were killed and how many slaves were returned peacfully to their masters? How many drowned? Wheeler didnt waste his time on those slaves. He took em back were they belonged.

 

[PartywithArty]

And what does the death of Nelson have to do with anything about this incident?

Both incedents prove how heartless the man was. He shot nelson in the heart when nelson wasnt even armed. He demanded the slaves stay on the other side on the creek AT GUN POINT! Whats that say about his character sir?

 

[wilber6150]

how many slaves were killed and how many slaves were returned peacfully to their masters? How many drowned? Wheeler didnt waste his time on those slaves. He took em back were they belonged.

So you are discounting your own source....

 

[wilber6150]

Both incedents prove how heartless the man was. He shot nelson in the heart when nelson wasnt even armed. He demanded the slaves stay on the other side on the creek AT GUN POINT! Whats that say about his character sir?

I'm not defending his character he was a piece of terd, however the original intent of this thread was you trying to blame Sherman for his actions...

 

[wilber6150]

how many slaves were killed and how many slaves were returned peacfully to their masters? How many drowned? Wheeler didnt waste his time on those slaves. He took em back were they belonged.

Could you make up your mind did he return those slaves or kill them...

from an earlier post in this thread...

there is no difference sir. When Davis cut that rope,he knew what he was doing... HE killed those slaves...He knew those slaved had no chance.

So were they killed or just returned to slavery

 

[dvrmte]

Sherman to Halleck regarding Sambo(That's what he called them)

http://books.google.com/books?id=5s4tAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA36&lpg=PA36&dq=official records georgia negroes ebenezer creek sherman&source=bl&ots=kfid4cxCOx&sig=mklL3Zmp9sDjutTQJtQiRZJ_yWI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=R8UBULXvHYbJqgHMuIWxDA&ved=0CEwQ6AEwATgU#v=onepage&q=official records georgia negroes ebenezer creek sherman&f=false

"He[Davis] and Slocum both tell me that they don t believe Wheeler killed one of them. Slocum's column, 30,000, reports 17,000 negroes. Now with 1,200 wagons and the necessary impedimenta of an army, overloaded with two thirds negroes five-sixths of whom are helpless and a large proportion of them babies and small children, had I encountered an enemy of respectable strength, defeat would have been certain."

 

[diane]

I think I have to say that sounds like Sherman! To be fair, I'm sure he was confident everything was fine with the people stranded - he really didn't think Southerners would kill slaves because he had noticed more than once how fiercely they protected this particular type of property. But Sherman had major blind spots. That said, I can understand the military necessity of getting shut of thousands of civilians during a major operation. But there was a responsibility for them - after all, in general they had been invited (not by Sherman, that's for sure!) to follow Union armies for protection, and for these people their men were serving the army. Those men didn't get stranded.

 

[PartywithArty]

Hey Wilber, Do you know when to just drop somthing? I dont think you do..I cant change your mind,you cant change mine...Let it go and quit badgering. And to think your a moderator..

 

[Nathanb1]

I can make everyone drop it. This is hereby locked a nd I will not unlock it. If I see it unlocked by anyone other than Mike or Ami I'll just lock it again. Thanks, everyone.

Posted in Capacity as Moderator

 

[ole]

Hey Wilber, Do you know when to just drop somthing? I dont think you do..I cant change your mind,you cant change mine...Let it go and quit badgering. And to think your a moderator..

Nobody has called anyone a bad name, nor has the OP been altered, other than opinion. There is good stuff in here and I'm also thoroughly tired of it as the OP doesn't seem to have grasped the implications thoroughly. Could be right, could be wrong. And the repetition is tiresome.

What Davis did, and Wheeler did, kinda suck. The rest is opinion.

Not being a military man, I can only suppose that I would have pulled in that bridge. Did Davis do it because he didn't like the train he was pulling? Or did he do it for military exigencies?

Some questions have been unanswered. Did Sherman invite the train of refugees that followed his armies? Did Davis cut the bridge maliciously because he didn't like blacks? Or did he take up the bridge because he didn't want a battle with Wheeler?

How many refugees were there? How many were killed and how many drowned?

What can be ascribed to military necessity and what can be ascribed to malicious intent?

Adolescent poking aside, this situation is a fact that begs for discussion.

If it can be disussed rationally, maybe Nathan can forego locking it again. If it can't, I will shut up and let it be lockd permanently.

 

[wilber6150]

Ole, you are correct the question should be was Davis militarily correct in pulling that bridge...It might be a nasty situation due to the civilians who wanted to use it, but was it done out of necessessity? Secondly, could he have held it open and fought off the Confederates as the slaves fled across it.. Or would that have put his units at risk..

 

[dvrmte]

Ole, you are correct the question should be was Davis militarily correct in pulling that bridge...It might be a nasty situation due to the civilians who wanted to use it, but was it done out of necessessity? Secondly, could he have held it open and fought off the Confederates as the slaves fled across it.. Or would that have put his units at risk..

That would be a tough decision that would rip at my consciense the rest of my life; saving the life's of soldiers, (who are expected to die), by sacrificing old men, women and children.

 

[diane]

I think I mentioned a little earlier that Davis did have legitimate reason to pull the bridge - he had need of it for the rest of the trip through the swamps and creeks and rough land ahead. Also, Hardee was still present before Savannah - Sherman pointed out that the drag of thousands of civilians on his army would have insured defeat had he met a formidable enemy - such as Hardee at that time. Wheeler was close enough to Davis to shell - he almost caught the army like he had planned. So, that would be the military necessity. The thing is, these people believed the Union army represented safety and protection for them - there had been many invitations for slaves to follow Union troops off the plantations all over the South. It was a predicament - but ditching them like that, between the devil and the deep blue river, was a horror. And, even more horrible perhaps, nobody cared much. Davis, Sherman, even near-abolitionist Slocum just sort of shrugged - stuff happens attitude. They could have saved at least some - they let the pioneers and other laborers across after all. Can you imagine these men watching that bridge come up?

 

[K Hale]

I've read accounts (nope, can't recall where) written by some of Davis' men who said that they tried to help the slaves get across by pushing trees down so that they fell across the river. Some of them were horrified by what they saw happening. I remember one account in particular, I believe it was a letter home, where the soldier was really furious at Davis and wanted him called on the carpet for this.

 

[cash]

Not being a military man, I can only suppose that I would have pulled in that bridge. Did Davis do it because he didn't like the train he was pulling? Or did he do it for military exigencies?

Or both?

Some questions have been unanswered. Did Sherman invite the train of refugees that followed his armies?

No.

Did Davis cut the bridge maliciously because he didn't like blacks? Or did he take up the bridge because he didn't want a battle with Wheeler?

or both? Two birds with one bridge?

 

[cash]

That would be a tough decision that would rip at my consciense the rest of my life; saving the life's of soldiers, (who are expected to die), by sacrificing old men, women and children.

Soldiers aren't expected to die. They understand that dying may result, but they aren't expected to die anymore than firemen or policemen are expected to die.

 

[dvrmte]

Soldiers aren't expected to die. They understand that dying may result, but they aren't expected to die anymore than firemen or policemen are expected to die.

We all expect to die. I think you know what I meant.

 

[cash]

We all expect to die. I think you know what I meant.

When you differentiate between old men, women, and children, and soldiers who you specify "are expected to die," I know exactly what you mean, and it isn't "We all expect to die."

 

[K Hale]

When you differentiate between old men, women, and children, and soldiers who you specify "are expected to die," I know exactly what you mean, and it isn't "We all expect to die."

I'm reminded of a certain famous Patton quote... lol

 

[FourLeafClover]

As the campaign progressed, great numbers of negroes attached themselves to the columns and accompanied the march. This was contrary to the wish of Sherman, who felt the embarrassment of having thousands of mouths added to the number of those who must be fed from the country as he moved. Those who had less responsibility for the campaign did not trouble themselves so much with this consideration, and the men in the ranks generally encouraged the slaves to leave the plantations. The negroes themselves found it hard to let slip the present opportunity of getting out of bondage, and their uneducated minds could not estimate the hope of freedom at the close of the war as having much weight against the instant liberty which was to be had by simply tramping away after the blue-coated soldiers.
The natural result was that the regular bivouacs of the troops were fringed by numberless gipsy camps, where the negro families, old and young, endured every privation, living upon the charity of the soldiers, helping themselves to what they could glean in the track of the army foragers. On the march, they trudged along, making no complaint, full of a simple faith that "Lincoln's men" were leading them to abodes of ease and plenty.
When the lower and less fruitful lands were reached, the embarrassment and military annoyance increased. This was more particularly felt in the left wing, which was then the only one exposed to the attacks of the enemy. Losing patience at the failure of all orders and exhortations to these poor people to stay at home, General Davis (commanding the Fourteenth Corps), ordered the pontoon bridge at Ebenezer Creek to be taken up before the refugees who were following that corps had crossed, so as to leave them on the further bank of the unfordable stream and thus disembarrass the marching troops. It would be unjust to that officer to believe that the order would have been given, if the effect had been foreseen. The poor refugees had their hearts so set on liberation, and the fear of falling into the hands of the Confederate cavalry was so great, that, with wild wailings and cries, the great crowd rushed, like a stampeded drove of cattle, into the water, those who could not swim as well as those who could, and many were drowned in spite of the earnest efforts of the soldiers to help them. As soon as the character of the unthinking rush and panic was seen, all was done that could be done to save them from the water; but the loss of life was still great enough to prove that there were many ignorant, simple souls to whom it was literally preferable to die freemen rather than to live slaves.
Source: "The March To The Sea/Franklin And Nashville" By Jacob D. Cox, LL. D., Late Major-General Commanding Twenty-Third Army Corps
Chapter II.--The March Through Georgia.