Lincoln Lincoln Lies ?

Lincoln had no plans for such an emancipation as President elect up to the precise moment he wrote that letter. He did not(and could not)presume to promise that changing events would not require a change in plans.



January 16th, 1849.....
While In Congress worked out a formula of conservative legislation for the
abolition of slavery in the District Of Columbia.


Lincoln The President: Vol. 1 Springfield To Gettysburg Page 17
I do believe this was well before he was President elect. He had the ambition then. He did not submit the bill because he knew at that time congress would not pass it.
Respectfully,
William Richardson
 
No, you are indeed ignoring the context and the plain meaning. you are taking I have no thought, (I have no plans) and trying to turn it into "I have never thought".

Lincoln did not say he had never thought of recommending the abolition of slavery in D.C. he was responding to a question about what he planned do as President. As president he had no thought about recomending such. It's the same as saying "I have no plans".


You are missing the obvious. He had plans in 1849, He had NO plans in 1860, In 1862 he acted on his plan from 1849.
He never relinquished the idea.


Respectfully,

William Richardson
 
You are missing the obvious. He had plans in 1849, He had NO plans in 1860, In 1862 he acted on his plan from 1849.
He never relinquished the idea.


Respectfully,

William Richardson

WR,

I'm not sure I know where you stand on this.

You ask in the thread title, did Lincoln lie? Do you still think that?

It's clear that in 1849, he had ideas about abolishing slavery, which were never brought to fruition. In 1860, he said he had no plans at that time to end slavery - he noted Congress would never pass such a law, and anyway, why would he bring that up at a time when the Union was dissolving over slavery? But in 1862, he supported abolition, at a time where the environment supported it. (Was the 1862 abolition plan "his" plan? I'm not sure that it met all the conditions Lincoln would have liked - but he clearly approved the final version of the bill.)

So, based on the facts presented, you don't think Lincoln lied... right? (About abolition in the District, anyway.)

- Alan
 
WR,

I'm not sure I know where you stand on this.

You ask in the thread title, did Lincoln lie? Do you still think that?

It's clear that in 1849, he had ideas about abolishing slavery, which were never brought to fruition. In 1860, he said he had no plans at that time to end slavery - he noted Congress would never pass such a law, and anyway, why would he bring that up at a time when the Union was dissolving over slavery? But in 1862, he supported abolition, at a time where the environment supported it. (Was the 1862 abolition plan "his" plan? I'm not sure that it met all the conditions Lincoln would have liked - but he clearly approved the final version of the bill.)

So, based on the facts presented, you don't think Lincoln lied... right? (About abolition in the District, anyway.)

- Alan


Yes in MY opinion Lincoln lied in 1860 about his intentions as to recommending the abolition of slavery in the District Of Columbia. Now I do not believe he knew exactly when he was going to do but in MY opinion it was his plan to based on his attempt to in 1849. Lincoln never relinquished that thought / idea/ plan.

Lincoln was answering Mr. Gilmer's letter which must have contained 6 questions. Lincoln answered each. One question, I must assume asked if he (Lincoln) planned on abolishing slavery in the District Of Columbia. Lincoln stated "
I have no thought of recommending the abolition of slavery in the District of Columbia, nor the slave trade among the slave states, even on the conditions indicated; and if I were to make such recommendation, it is quite clear Congress would not follow it. "
He had the thought back in 1849 and never relinquished it.
Respectfully,

William Richardson
 
Yes in MY opinion Lincoln lied in 1860 about his intentions as to recommending the abolition of slavery in the District Of Columbia. Now I do not believe he knew exactly when he was going to do but in MY opinion it was his plan to based on his attempt to in 1849. Lincoln never relinquished that thought / idea/ plan.

Lincoln was answering Mr. Gilmer's letter which must have contained 6 questions. Lincoln answered each. One question, I must assume asked if he (Lincoln) planned on abolishing slavery in the District Of Columbia. Lincoln stated "
I have no thought of recommending the abolition of slavery in the District of Columbia, nor the slave trade among the slave states, even on the conditions indicated; and if I were to make such recommendation, it is quite clear Congress would not follow it. "
He had the thought back in 1849 and never relinquished it.
Respectfully,

William Richardson

See, I just don't get it. Why on earth would Lincoln want to propose abolishing slavery right when the nation was in the throes of disunion, and the congress was doing everything to take the issue of slavery off the table (via, for example, Corwin or Crittenden.)

What you're suggesting is not that Lincoln was a liar; you're suggesting he was a complete idiot, to be thinking of DC abolition at such a time.

I suspect Gilmer asked Lincoln that question precisely because Lincoln had indicated his support for DC abolition in the past. Lincoln got to the point: I have no thought of doing that (now) and the Congress would not pass it (now). Once the political environment changed, however, Lincoln - and the Congress - were free to pursue other policies. But at the time Lincoln responded to Gilmer, nobody knew that the political environment would change.

IF Lincoln had the power of clairvoyance, and knew it was inevitable that the opportunity, in a divided nation at war whose Congress was warming to the idea of emancipation, to end slavery in the District would come up; then yes, you could say was he lying. But his actions throughout the war seem to indicate he lacked such powers of precognition.

- Alan

PS: This is just like Lincoln, in his 1st Inauguration Speech, and Congress, in a resolution, said they had no desire to end domestic institutions where they stood, ie, they had no plans to end slavery. I believe they were genuine when they said that; protecting slavery where it was seemed like a good compromise to make to avoid war.

But when the Confederate States stayed out the Union and continued their war with the USA, different policies and strategies were considered and implemented. In his 2nd Inauguration Speech, Lincoln said that initially nobody thought that the cause of war (ie, slavery) would end as a result of the war... but it did. Nobody was thinking it would happen back in 1861... certainly not Abraham Lincoln (although many were hoping it would happen).
 
You are missing the obvious. He had plans in 1849, He had NO plans in 1860, In 1862 he acted on his plan from 1849.
He never relinquished the idea.


Respectfully,

William Richardson
The obvious that is being overlooked is by you. Again, Lincoln did not state he had never thought of abolishing slavery in D.C. He only stated that at the time he had no thought of recommending such action as President. You consistently try to turn what he said into a claim that he stated he had never thought about abolishing slavery in D.C.

Lincolns reply is couched in the present tense, "I have no thought" not, "I have never thought." even if later he did so (Instead of just signing the act of Congress) he still can not be claimed to be a liar, plans are subject to change given the circumstances. Lincoln could just as easily been asked if he planned to call up the militia against the seceding states and replied he had no thought of doing so. (Again present tense) and the fact that he later did AFTER the attack on Fort Sumter would not be evidence that he lied. Rather it is evidence that he responded to the circumstances as they occurred.
 
The obvious that is being overlooked is by you. Again, Lincoln did not state he had never thought of abolishing slavery in D.C. He only stated that at the time he had no thought of recommending such action as President. You consistently try to turn what he said into a claim that he stated he had never thought about abolishing slavery in D.C.

Lincolns reply is couched in the present tense, "I have no thought" not, "I have never thought." even if later he did so (Instead of just signing the act of Congress) he still can not be claimed to be a liar, plans are subject to change given the circumstances. Lincoln could just as easily been asked if he planned to call up the militia against the seceding states and replied he had no thought of doing so. (Again present tense) and the fact that he later did AFTER the attack on Fort Sumter would not be evidence that he lied. Rather it is evidence that he responded to the circumstances as they occurred.


Dan,

I can see how one could interpret it that way, but did Lincoln ever relinquish his thought/desire/plan/idea to abolish slavery in Delaware ? In my opinion and in my interpretation he did not. Now I suppose you can and will say I have interpreted it wrong, but I disagree with you on that. I suppose next you will tell me he always thought of the negro as an equal ?

Respectfully,

William Richardson
 
Dan,

I can see how one could interpret it that way, but did Lincoln ever relinquish his thought/desire/plan/idea to abolish slavery in Delaware ? In my opinion and in my interpretation he did not. Now I suppose you can and will say I have interpreted it wrong, but I disagree with you on that. I suppose next you will tell me he always thought of the negro as an equal ?

Respectfully,

William Richardson

As I stated previously Lincoln made a general statement in the letter stating he had no thought (plans) of recommending abolition in the D.C. That it is present tense is not disputable. Nor is the context in that he was responding to questions regarding his plans as President.

I could say right now that I have no plans to leave the house tonight but numerous things could come up requiring me to do so. that doe snot make my previous statement a lie.

In regards to Lincoln and how he viewed the Negro I would say no, he did not consider them his equal. But even here one has to differentiate While Lincoln did not consider them his political, social,economic, equal or his equal in intelligence He did consider them his equal in the right to liberty, freedom, and the right to enjoy the fruits of their own labor.
 
I could say right now that I have no plans to leave the house tonight but numerous things could come up requiring me to do so. that doe snot make my previous statement a lie.

It would if you had earlier stated you might leave the house tonight. See you continuously try to forget Lincoln's earlier action. He already had the thought of abolishing slavery in the District Of Columbia and never relinquished it.

Respectfully,

William Richardson
 
Keep in mind 1860 was an election year, D.C. is located within Maryland a southern sympathizing state and a slave state at that. No doubt people would argue could Congress abolish slavery within a federal district in Maryland. Obviously, they could - they did but nonetheless it would be a heated topic at that point.
 

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